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10vt tuning/standalone/efi/COP options

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 Post subject: 10vt tuning/standalone/efi/COP options
PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 6:13 pm 
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Hello everybody, so I thought I'd jump right into it. I'd like to talk about current tuning options for a 10vt, specifically going efi/standalone and I'd like to hear COP conversion ideas/setup's. I'm swapping a MC2 10VT from a 89 200 into a 87 4kq and would like to modernize the 10v a bit. Most people will start by saying to swap in a 20vt instead but I want to keep this thread on task...10vt only. I have another project involving a 20vt anyway and I just feel as if the 4kq and 10vt are meant to be together. My aim is for ~300awhp using e85 with a useable powerband from 3000rpm-7000rpm.

So I've been doing a lot of reading and searching and it seems as if chips are no longer available and there aren't any off the shelf/turn key efi systems so that pretty much means:

Work with the stock cis (no thanks)
Piece together an efi...something like megasquirt....OK, but...

What about your ignition timing and boost control? Not very many options there.

So now we've got to work a band-aid around the ecu.

Find an old chip...but then you're limited to the stock turbo....or...I know there's a way to bypass the ecu's ignition and boost control (someone can chime in on that, it passes my mind right now) but then you have no rev limiter...problem solved...msd ignition or whatever ignition system you like.

Ok...onto boost control...electronic boost controller or MBC with a stiffer wastegate spring...pretty simple fix.

At this point though there's a lot of money being spent to work around an antiquated ecu/fueling...and I haven't even started talking about COP conversion and the compatibility of that. So the logical progression in my mind at this point is why not simplify the whole thing and go standalone?

This is where my questions really start...

What standalone does everyone recommend? MS3, VEMS, Haltech, etc...? Personally I'm leaning towards Haltech 750 based on a recommendation and some mild research into it. I'm looking for something that has flex fuel sensor and some form of two step/"launch control".

What is everyone doing about ignition? Specifically COP? Is everyone just using the hall sensor in the dizzy to get their cps signal or is there some way to go distributor-less? I worry about high rpm accuracy. I may not be going for a lot of power but I plan on driving the car like I stole it. I like to run something like ls2 coils so I can cleanly mount them on the fire wall. I'll still need an ignition module like a MSD, correct?

Obviously I'm looking for answers to help my build but even if you have something to contribute to the 10vt engines then please post. It's hard to find information without some serious digging so it'd be nice to open up the discussion about these engines again.


Tl;dr...
I want to hit 300 awhp on e85 with a mc2 swapped 4kq using a standalone ecu with a COP/individual coil ignition, preferably distributorless and has flex fuel and two step/launch control compatibility. I can use the distributor if I have to if it's the only non complete pain in the ass way to get cam position.

Thanks in advance!


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 Post subject: Re: 10vt tuning/standalone/efi/COP options
PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 7:10 pm 
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I know the MS3X will do everything you say and more. I'm pretty sure the VEMS will also do it all as well. I have no knowledge of the halltech system.

I'm running MS3X on my MC1 with LS2 coils. I shortened the dizzy a little and kept the hall sensor for CPS. I am also running a 60-2 wheel with a hall sensor for crank position. The 10v head is pretty well maxed out(in stockish form) at 7k RPM. I have a PnP head, oversized exhaust valves, high rate springs, and Ti retainers. I have my rev limiter set to around 6500. All in all it works quite well.

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 Post subject: Re: 10vt tuning/standalone/efi/COP options
PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 8:16 pm 
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6500 is acceptable. My friend and I (he's the welder, not me) will be building an exhaust manifold using jim green's as a template/inspiration. Honestly I can only hope it will turn out nearly as nice as his but my friend is a pretty good welder. Hopefully that helps with some flow.

I am re/building the motor, I have a decent parts collection started and was planning on doing some head work...springs, valves, retainers and maybe a little cleaning up of ports but I didn't plan on going too crazy. Just want to throw new parts in there as I'm gonna keep this car for a long time and I'd like to see it go another 300k.

Sounds like your setup is pretty much what I'm looking for, just wasn't sure if MS3x would do the trick. I'll have to join the ms forums, I've been browsing there a little.

I am going to use the 200 flywheel, I've got an entire donor car for this fortunately. I know there's a 60-2 rms available as well.


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 Post subject: Re: 10vt tuning/standalone/efi/COP options
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 12:07 pm 
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IIRC there's an add on to MS3 that will let you use oem audi timing sensors. If you're interested in have an 034 IIB setup for sale, unfortunately it only does distributor based ignition but it can be something to get you by until you piece together something else. It's a complete harness I've been using on my 200 10v mc2, all you'd need is fuel system and sensors


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 Post subject: Re: 10vt tuning/standalone/efi/COP options
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 7:03 pm 
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fattyalx wrote:
IIRC there's an add on to MS3 that will let you use oem audi timing sensors. If you're interested in have an 034 IIB setup for sale, unfortunately it only does distributor based ignition but it can be something to get you by until you piece together something else. It's a complete harness I've been using on my 200 10v mc2, all you'd need is fuel system and sensors

You are correct. I don't remember who made it anymore, but there was a divider board made specifically for the "Audi trigger". I didn't go that route because there is a lot of electronics voodoo that needs to be done to make it work. I know Elaw was running it, but has sense moved on to using just the chip, and custom hall sensors I made for him.

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 Post subject: Re: 10vt tuning/standalone/efi/COP options
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 5:46 am 
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The divider is made by a guy named Jean Bélanger in Canada. He runs (/is) http://www.jbperf.com and sells a variety of add-on board for the Megasquirt. The divider board isn't listed on the website but may still be available if you contact him. The board should work with any Megasquirt... basically what it does is take the two OE sensor signals and combine them into a single output that mimics a 45-1 tooth crank wheel.

Megasquirt using the OE sensors and Jean's board definitely *can* be made to work... it's just difficult. The sensors aren't like most other VR sensors (I actually think they're repurposed ABS sensors) and are prone to noise and crosstalk issues. With many hours of futzing I got my car to run well 99.9% of the time with the OE sensors... but with the Hall sensors it runs well 100% of the time.

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 Post subject: Re: 10vt tuning/standalone/efi/COP options
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 5:53 am 
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I'm looking to go MS3 soon, what hall sensors did you use and where are they placed? Interested in more info in the setup and if it'd work on a 10v

elaw wrote:
The divider is made by a guy named Jean Bélanger in Canada. He runs (/is) http://www.jbperf.com and sells a variety of add-on board for the Megasquirt. The divider board isn't listed on the website but may still be available if you contact him. The board should work with any Megasquirt... basically what it does is take the two OE sensor signals and combine them into a single output that mimics a 45-1 tooth crank wheel.

Megasquirt using the OE sensors and Jean's board definitely *can* be made to work... it's just difficult. The sensors aren't like most other VR sensors (I actually think they're repurposed ABS sensors) and are prone to noise and crosstalk issues. With many hours of futzing I got my car to run well 99.9% of the time with the OE sensors... but with the Hall sensors it runs well 100% of the time.


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 Post subject: Re: 10vt tuning/standalone/efi/COP options
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 6:01 am 
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I made adaptors to fit the threaded hall sensors that DIYAutotune sells. If you use the flywheel JBperf setup, they go in the original spot for the VR sensors. I'm currently running one on the trigger wheel setup on my 10v.

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 Post subject: Re: 10vt tuning/standalone/efi/COP options
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 6:05 am 
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Here is the sensor and the adaptor I made.
Image

Here it is mounted in my setup
.Image

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 Post subject: Re: 10vt tuning/standalone/efi/COP options
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 6:06 am 
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I actually have two setups, but neither is off-the-shelf.

Iteration #1, which is currently in the car, is some custom housings machined by Dave, into which I put raw sensors (I don't recall the exact model but similar to these: http://www.allegromicro.com/en/Products/Magnetic-Speed-Sensor-ICs/Camshaft-Sensor-ICs/ATS617.aspx).

Iteration #1 works just fine, but I realized since they're completely custom parts I'd be in deep doo-doo if one ever failed as I only built the two. So I got Dave to machine some adapter housings that accept off-the-shelf threaded sensors. Again I don't remember the exact model off the top of my head but they're something like this: http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/zf-electronics/GS100102/CH414-ND/361996

I've got those adapters and sensors ready to go, I just haven't gotten around to installing them.

In both cases above, the sensors go in the same locations as the OE sensors.

Images below are the Dave/Eric "homemade" sensors. They don't look like much, but have been working well in daily driving since 8/2013!


Attachments:
80CrankSensors3.JPG
80CrankSensors3.JPG [ 674.34 KiB | Viewed 342 times ]
80CrankSensors6.JPG
80CrankSensors6.JPG [ 666.96 KiB | Viewed 342 times ]

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Be alert! America needs more lerts.
Eric Law
'90 80Q with AAN and Megasquirt
'97 Saab 9000 Aero: mostly stock but ECU tweaks to add fastness
'86 4KTQ: R.I.P.
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 Post subject: Re: 10vt tuning/standalone/efi/COP options
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 6:09 am 
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For future reference, the part # of the threaded body hall sensors is GS100502. They are much cheaper is sourced away from DIY.

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 Post subject: Re: 10vt tuning/standalone/efi/COP options
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 6:16 am 
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Would it be possible to create that again? Not exactly now, but for when I buy MS3 and the jbperf setup


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 Post subject: Re: 10vt tuning/standalone/efi/COP options
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 6:18 am 
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Just to clarify, I'm not saying that using the OE sensors or Hall replacements is the absolute best option if you want to use Megasquirt (which I highly recommend). It's the best option only if using a single trigger wheel (on the damper like DE80q or machined into the flywheel) isn't possible. Otherwise go with the single wheel... it's a much more standard setup.

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'90 80Q with AAN and Megasquirt
'97 Saab 9000 Aero: mostly stock but ECU tweaks to add fastness
'86 4KTQ: R.I.P.


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 Post subject: Re: 10vt tuning/standalone/efi/COP options
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 6:22 am 
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fattyalx wrote:
Would it be possible to create that again? Not exactly now, but for when I buy MS3 and the jbperf setup

If you go with a setup like DE80q, there shouldn't be much need to "create" anything.

Just get your hands on a damper with a 60-2 trigger wheel (or add one to yours), and one of the sensors Dave mentions. Fab up a bracket and position the sensor like he did, wire the sensor to the Megasquirt, and you're good to go. You don't need Jean's chip... that's only used if you're using a setup like OE with two sensors on the flywheel.

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Be alert! America needs more lerts.
Eric Law
'90 80Q with AAN and Megasquirt
'97 Saab 9000 Aero: mostly stock but ECU tweaks to add fastness
'86 4KTQ: R.I.P.


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 Post subject: Re: 10vt tuning/standalone/efi/COP options
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 6:36 am 
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Well time to attempt to find a 60-2 wheel or damper


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 Post subject: Re: 10vt tuning/standalone/efi/COP options
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 7:07 am 
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On this thread you can see how he did his trigger wheel damper. A little different, but it worked all the same. Page 12 if it doesn't take you straight here.
https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum ... 55/page12/

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 Post subject: Re: 10vt tuning/standalone/efi/COP options
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 11:12 pm 
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By chance do you know the best place to get a 60-2 trigger wheel? I've got a spare damper I can get it on while I find megasquirt


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 Post subject: Re: 10vt tuning/standalone/efi/COP options
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2017 1:06 am 
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You can get them on eBay.

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 Post subject: Re: 10vt tuning/standalone/efi/COP options
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2017 5:23 am 
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DE80q wrote:
You can get them on eBay.


Do you by chance know the size off the top of your head?


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 Post subject: Re: 10vt tuning/standalone/efi/COP options
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2017 8:10 am 
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Sorry, I do not.

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