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4kq Race Car

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 Post subject: 4kq Race Car
PostPosted: Sun Oct 03, 2004 8:45 pm 
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Hey guys, just wanted to share another cool car tuned on 034efi.

Its used to be a 4kq, fully stripped, caged, totally raced out. I helped Tim Valencia build the car in the late 90's for a NASA series called Super Unlimited, which we actually won in 2000 (the car used to be "multi-colored"). Tim sold the car, and the new owner ripped out the 3B motronic and put in an 034 Stage IIc system, with the pulley, coils, the whole shibang. The motor is a stock MC1 bottom end with a heavily massaged head, solid lifters, 280d cam, 41/36mm valves, etc.

Its running a Lehman header with a K27/28 or 29 hybrid, its very large. I tuned it down in San diego this weekend on a dyno dynamics dyno (whic read really low). It made 250 hp at the wheels with 15psi boost, not bad, and peak power was a 6200rpm, I set the revlimiter at 7500 where all the fun is pretty much over (still very healty for a 10v). I estimate its making about 325 crank HP right now, with 20psi it should make 375 easy.

Considering the cars weights about 2500lbs, its very fast to say the least.

More pictures here, enjoy: http://www.80tq.com/gallery/album01


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Robin4kq.JPG [ 74.28 KiB | Viewed 3033 times ]

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 03, 2004 9:21 pm 
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 03, 2004 10:13 pm 
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javad, why do you have to estimate the horsepower? isn't it sitting on a dyno? i mean, i wasn't a photo op, was it? :P

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 03, 2004 10:18 pm 
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derracuda wrote:
javad, why do you have to estimate the horsepower? isn't it sitting on a dyno? i mean, i wasn't a photo op, was it? :P


Derek, I approximated crank HP since the dyno only tells you wheel HP. It made 250-255whp on the dot, you can be sure of that. Different dyno's put out different #'s. Since all manufacturers quote crank/flywheel HP, and chassis dyno's only measure wheel HP, you need to "approximate" crank HP from the wheel HP.

So, last week my car made 375whp, which approximates to about 450 crank HP for a Dyno Jet dyno.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 03, 2004 10:27 pm 
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sweet, sounds good to me :-)

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2004 10:13 pm 
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Here is some video of me tuning it on the dyno, not too exciting, but the sound is very reminiscent of the Trans Am car, all the way to 8krpm 8)

www.034efi.com/Movies/RobinGBaseline.avi

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2004 5:41 am 
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JShadzi wrote:


What is that sound 29s into the Video?

p.s. All Hail the Hachi Roku in the background :drool: (has too much body kit though :( )

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Last edited by Wizard-of-OD on Wed Oct 13, 2004 6:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2004 6:18 am 
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Wizard-of-OD wrote:
What is that sound 29s into the Video?


That sound rocks.

Thats the turbo expelling air backward when the TB closes.
My machine will make that noise in an ungodly manner when I shift. It typically not nearly as noticable on 10V cars because of airbox and intake muffling the turbo; however, the shorter the intake tract with a minimal airbox will make the sound extremely loud. It is indicative of the Lehmann Audisport cars because they did not use a BPV or a BOV. A properly working BPV or BOV will prevent the turbo from stalling. Preventing stall is very good, but of course its not authentic. Kudos to that guy for going authentic in the engine setup. Pics of the engine Javad?

Usually a high performance S1 will make at least 3 super sonic pulses "Stika stika stika" sound from top revs to off throttle as the turbo spins down when using a larger K27 variant.. Is his turbo spooling up all the way? He might want to add more boost to increase CFMs or go with a smaller turbo.

Cool video.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2004 6:35 am 
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So if it does the famous "turbo chatter" why is it only making 275hp?
And whats the probability of turbo failure from no BOV/this setup?

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2004 7:13 am 
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Wizard-of-OD wrote:
So if it does the famous "turbo chatter" why is it only making 275hp?
And whats the probability of turbo failure from no BOV/this setup?


Good questions.

I think the chatter isn't really an indicator of power. Its just a "deficiency" in the design that is substandard than current modern BPV configurations. I just like it for what it is and represents. Many people think this nostalgia is getting the better of me, but I think there's value in preserving that period in turbo development that Audi went through.

He could be running a BPV, but if he is; its too small.

275 whp from a 10V isn't bad at all. The 10V rally cars were around 350hp listed crank, so he's right there. One thing to keep in mind is that car can very probably make that kinda power for 30+ minutes straight with no heat soak or engine damage. Usuable, reliable power is a high premium to me. There is a difference between a good track motor and a dyno queen motor. Even a drag motor and a track motor have two very different engine building approaches.

But, generally the greater the chatter coming from a big K27 turbo means the bigger the swing in airflow. Which means the engine WAS consuming alot of air and now it isn't. So to me, hearing only one chatter means the turbo RPMs aren't high and it only stalling out once. The supersonic blast of air rushing backwards through the turbo inlet will be suppressed by the rotation until the pressure decelerates the rotation enough to cause a 2nd blast of air and so on and so on. One blast of air means low rotation and low CFM. That is why I was suggesting a smaller turbo to increase turbo RPM or raising the boost to increase RPM and CFM. If he's running a MC1 bottom with low 7:1 CR or 7.5:1 CR whatever it is, he should be running more boost.

How long does it last? I don't honestly know. It puts alot of strain on the turbo bearings. There is always forward thrust on the bearings and its increase and released when stalling so it makes a hammering effect. I think a K27 is a bit stronger than a K26. And the K27 turbos are known for their durability in this regard over garret products. I wouldn't pound on a garret turbo like that, but a K27 on a track car is okay.

That being said, I feel compelled to say this.
Audi currently runs Garret turbos with BPVs on its Lemans R8.
If you want ultimate performance, follow that line of thinking.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2004 7:24 am 
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Wizard-of-OD wrote:
So if it does the famous "turbo chatter" why is it only making 275hp?
And whats the probability of turbo failure from no BOV/this setup?


my car will make that sound. It does it now when i see over 20psi, it chatter's once. And when i had a BOV diaphragm tear, it did it several times. I know i know i need a bigger/multiple bov's...

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2004 7:38 am 
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birdmanmt wrote:
Wizard-of-OD wrote:
So if it does the famous "turbo chatter" why is it only making 275hp?
And whats the probability of turbo failure from no BOV/this setup?


my car will make that sound. It does it now when i see over 20psi, it chatter's once. And when i had a BOV diaphragm tear, it did it several times. I know i know i need a bigger/multiple bov's...


My S6 w/21 psi doesn't, but who knows, it could be muffled by that friggin 1/2" thick 2B intake hose!

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2004 7:51 am 
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fusilier wrote:
How long does it last? I don't honestly know. It puts alot of strain on the turbo bearings. There is always forward thrust on the bearings and its increase and released when stalling so it makes a hammering effect. I think a K27 is a bit stronger than a K26. And the K27 turbos are known for their durability in this regard over garret products. I wouldn't pound on a garret turbo like that, but a K27 on a track car is okay.

That being said, I feel compelled to say this.
Audi currently runs Garret turbos with BPVs on its Lemans R8.
If you want ultimate performance, follow that line of thinking.

Well i owned a RS2 turbo
K24 from a URS4 and a brand new K26 from a warehouse auction out of a 5000T.
Was advised to sell all of the above and go the garret.I broke even(made on the K26...lost on the RS2) and now am going Garret but i have always been fascinated with the KKK K27 turbo's.Ever since the big power guys were using them.
Right now i am looking for an Ideal Turbo to Spool that 2.0 i have.The reason VW Guys never used the K27 was because they didnt have the room(firewall) so noone has actually used a K27 before on a 4 banger.With a K26 one guy got 220whp @14Psi,Not bad for G60 management.

I always loved that turbo chatter because it is supposed to be an indication of reduced turbo lag...throttle body opens and the air that has backed up behind the throttle plate suddenly rushes into the engine.My worry is turbo going Kaboom... :bump: Maybe my understanding is wrong....?

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2004 7:52 am 
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a4kquattro wrote:
My S6 w/21 psi doesn't, but who knows, it could be muffled by that friggin 1/2" thick 2B intake hose!


Yep. Looking closely at the pic of that 4000. The KN cone filter is attached to a point right in front of where the turbo is. So the intake on that car is short and there is NO airbox.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2004 7:58 am 
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Wiz, I'll try and get you some new vids of my car, your going to love all the sounds it makes. It starts with the WG cracking open at 25 psi, then a loud chirp and clack when the WG and BOV cycle when you shift.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2004 2:33 pm 
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The car does have a BOV, the turbo Surges slightlly before its fully open, thus the sound, as others have described.

He was originally using one of my 034EFI turbos, which was an ideal turbo for his motor, wanted to use the Lehman header which had a K27 flange on it, so ended up with this horse of a turbo, its definitely too much turbo for the motor, but the thing is very spirited all the way to 7500rpm and very fun on open tracks with some room to run.

At 20psi, the thing should be making a good 300whp, at 25 I'd estimate it would be in the mid 300's.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2004 3:00 pm 
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JShadzi wrote:
The car does have a BOV, the turbo Surges slightlly before its fully open, thus the sound, as others have described.

He was originally using one of my 034EFI turbos, which was an ideal turbo for his motor, wanted to use the Lehman header which had a K27 flange on it, so ended up with this horse of a turbo, its definitely too much turbo for the motor, but the thing is very spirited all the way to 7500rpm and very fun on open tracks with some room to run.

At 20psi, the thing should be making a good 300whp, at 25 I'd estimate it would be in the mid 300's.


The K27 flange should be the same as the "Ford" Garrett T3 flange FWIW.
Unless it's one of those funny round "Audi" flanges. But most of the K27s I've seen (except the sport quattro) have the T3 size flange.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2004 3:56 pm 
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JShadzi wrote:
He was originally using one of my 034EFI turbos, which was an ideal turbo for his motor, wanted to use the Lehman header which had a K27 flange on it, so ended up with this horse of a turbo, its definitely too much turbo for the motor, but the thing is very spirited all the way to 7500rpm and very fun on open tracks with some room to run.
.


Javad,

What size K27 hybrid is he running? I know a guy who can get Sport Quattro K27 turbos which will work great on a race 10V. They're about 1500 dollars new.

James


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 Post subject: Re: 4kq Race Car
PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2016 11:24 am 
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Nothing like resurrecting a 12 your old thread! :)
But I am now in possession of this car and prepping it for sale.
Let the bidding war begin ;)


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 Post subject: Re: 4kq Race Car
PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 8:38 am 
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does it have an 07k in it yet? :p

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 Post subject: Re: 4kq Race Car
PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 9:59 am 
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Mentosman42 wrote:
does it have an 07k in it yet? :p

No, but I have a v8 out of a B6 RS4 that would fit ion there nicely. Entire driveline, DME, cluster and wiring harness :)


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 Post subject: Re: 4kq Race Car
PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 7:59 am 
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Pics!


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 Post subject: Re: 4kq Race Car
PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 9:23 am 
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I haven't cleaned it up yet. I still need to tune it up and change the fluids and drive it a bit.
I'll post up here when its ready for sale. Sounds like pure sex by the way! 4" side exit exhaust :)


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 Post subject: Re: 4kq Race Car
PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2016 8:05 pm 
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The car is officially available. Current pics and a video of it running can be found on my Big Fish Motorsports Facebook page.
I haven't listed it for sale yet as I wanted to get the word out to Audi enthusiasts before offering it to the general public. No, I haven't decided on a price yet. If you are interested, shoot me an offer. If not, let me know what you think its worth.
https://www.facebook.com/BigFishMotorsports/


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