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Eric's 4KTQ project part II: the AAN motor

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 Post subject: Eric's 4KTQ project part II: the AAN motor
PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 1:33 pm 
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Location: Sitting in traffic North of Boston, MA
This is part 2 of a story for which there's no part 1 since that wasn't done by me!

The back story: in October of '09 I got this spiffy '86 4KQ that had a "few" mods done to it. The PO had installed an MC-1 motor, Megasquirt, and had done a 5-lug conversion with a lovely assortment of random parts. A few pics from the day it arrived in my driveway:
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Some things on this car were done well, and others... not so much. There are certain people who should never be allowed to do wiring, and the PO was clearly one of them:
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It's a bit hard to see in that photo, but the Megasquirt wiring, including fuses and relays, was all suspended under the dash by tie-wraps. I could go on for hours but let's just say on a 1-10 scale, the quality of the electrical work on this car was a "0". :frustrated:

The car ran, but not very well. Driveability was not very good, it made lousy power, and didn't run well until fully warm. With a lot of rework and tuning, I got it running way better and making pretty decent power, but the engine still had some issues.

And the best part: the car needed a transmission. The one in it made some pretty evil noises and clearly needed replacing. So clearly, since I was going to be replacing the tranny anyway, it was time for a new motor!

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Eric Law
'90 80Q with AAN and Megasquirt
'97 Saab 9000 Aero: mostly stock but ECU tweaks to add fastness
'86 4KTQ: R.I.P.


Last edited by elaw on Sat May 14, 2011 12:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: ELaw's 4KTQ project part II: the AAN motor
PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 1:44 pm 
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One thing I was aware of about the AAN motor is it comes up a little short in the "distributor" department. :P

So before I even started the swap, I converted the car to a coil-per-plug setup:
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An important note to anyone doing this: putting nice labels with cylinder numbers on the coils does *not* guarantee it'll work right:
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As it turns out, a couple of the coils were defective! Being the paranoid type I am, I replaced all 5 with ones from a different source and things worked a whole lot better.

Megasquirt people may be asking at this point how the triggering is set up on the MS system, since it doesn't work with the 3 signals from the stock Audi sensors. Well guess what, I'm *not* using a 60-2 setup. I started out building my own custom divider circuit to combine the two flywheel-sensor signals into one that looked like a 15-tooth crank wheel to Megasquirt. About 5 minutes after I finished it I became aware of someone in Canada who had designed a microprocessor-based circuit that worked about the same but output a 45-1 wheel signal and was small & simple enough to fit into the Megasquirt case, so I switched to his setup. Although I've been fighting a few gremlins with the setup, in general it works well*.

* Edit 6/2011: the gremlin has been found and it was the fuel pump wiring! Since I rewired the pump a couple of months ago the thing has been dead-nuts reliable and runs like a dream. I can now heartily recommend this setup.

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Be alert! America needs more lerts.
Eric Law
'90 80Q with AAN and Megasquirt
'97 Saab 9000 Aero: mostly stock but ECU tweaks to add fastness
'86 4KTQ: R.I.P.


Last edited by elaw on Wed Jun 08, 2011 7:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: ELaw's 4KTQ project part II: the AAN motor
PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 1:52 pm 
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So fast-forward to May of 2010. I've got a few bucks saved up in the bank, have a replacement transmission in-hand (okay actually on the garage floor), and found someone in VT selling an AAN motor for a semi-reasonable price.

Luckily, my other car is a wonderful vehicle from a company that I won't name here so as not to offend anyone, but it's made by a Swedish company that is not Volvo. :lol:

It does a lot of things well (other than put power down since it's only FWD) and cargo-hauling is one of them:
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The AAN fit beautifully in the rear compartment with the hatch fully closed, and the car's tiedown rings combined with a ratchet strap kept it firmly in place during the trip back to scenic northeast MA! :drive:

I won't attach any more photos to this post since I think most of you know what an AAN motor looks like, but if you need anything PM me, I've got a ton of pix.

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Eric Law
'90 80Q with AAN and Megasquirt
'97 Saab 9000 Aero: mostly stock but ECU tweaks to add fastness
'86 4KTQ: R.I.P.


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 Post subject: Re: ELaw's 4KTQ project part II: the AAN motor
PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 8:16 pm 
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Nothing wrong with Saabs man! I love the 9-3 viggen! Sweet project btw man!

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PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2011 9:08 am 
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Bringing this topic back from the dead...

One thing I should have mentioned in the 1st post is since there are a billion (give or take a billion) other 20VT-into-B2 projects on here, I'm going to try to highlight what's interesting or unique about mine rather than document every single step. But if anyone has any questions or wants more info, I've got many many photos of almost everything!

So moving right along...

First for what it's worth, an "after" photo of the Megasquirt wiring. I made an aluminum bracket for the relays and fuses that mounts under the dash where the A/C bits used to be:
Image

..and neatened up the wiring:
Image

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Eric Law
'90 80Q with AAN and Megasquirt
'97 Saab 9000 Aero: mostly stock but ECU tweaks to add fastness
'86 4KTQ: R.I.P.


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 Post subject: Re: ELaw's 4KTQ project part II: the AAN motor
PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2011 9:17 am 
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In addition to the 20VT motor, the transmission in the 4K needed replacing (seriously noisy bearings). So I got another one and decided to just swap the engine+trans as an assembly.

Here they are in the garage:
Image
Note in this photo the engine is sporting a 7A valve cover... I originally tried it because it matched up well with the (7A) plug wires. But after thinking a bit more, I decided I'd like to keep the crankcase ventilation setup from the AAN so the original VC went back on.

And a wonderful little bit of trivia... if you place the engine+trans in just the right place on a 4x4, it balances! Note the loose chain from the hoist in this photo:
Image

After doing some research here, I decided the easiest way to remove the engine+trans assembly was from the bottom. Subframe bolts could have been an issue but luckily were not, and all in all it went pretty easily. Here's the "before" pic:
Image

And the "after":
Image

Now at this point, I realized I had removed quite a lot of weight from the car, which undoubtedly would help its balance and improve handling. However it would probably be pretty slow with no engine and transmission so I decided to continue... :D

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Be alert! America needs more lerts.
Eric Law
'90 80Q with AAN and Megasquirt
'97 Saab 9000 Aero: mostly stock but ECU tweaks to add fastness
'86 4KTQ: R.I.P.


Last edited by elaw on Tue May 31, 2011 4:30 am, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2011 9:24 am 
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Here's a shot of the AAN and MC sitting next to each other in the garage:
Image

Before the new setup could go in, some work needed to be done. The wiring harness on the transmission was in such bad shape I just made a new one. I also made a new stainless actuating rod for the diff lock since the old one was rusty and I figured the rough surface would increase drag 8)
Image

I also went a little nuts creating heatshields for various things. The diff lock actuator was my first victim:
Image

Also these photos don't show it very well but I made a nice heatshield for the starter and its wiring:
Image
Image

BTW that thing with the orange cover is the wire from the alternator... mil-spec Tefzel-insulated aircraft wire in silicone+fiberglass fire sleeving. I *really* don't like short-circuits! :wink:

The PO had cobbled up a really nasty setup for the fuel pump and filter, the pump was a POS and was strapped directly to the floor (= noisy) and the filter was basically dangling. This photo doesn't show it very well but I put a new pump & filter on rubber mounts on an aluminum plate bolted under the car where the stock ones go:
Image
Note the "bottom" legend on the mounting plate - this is very helpful when approaching the car to quickly identify whether it's right-side-up or not.

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Be alert! America needs more lerts.
Eric Law
'90 80Q with AAN and Megasquirt
'97 Saab 9000 Aero: mostly stock but ECU tweaks to add fastness
'86 4KTQ: R.I.P.


Last edited by elaw on Tue May 31, 2011 4:32 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2011 9:40 am 
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And now, the photos of me installing the engine + tranny!

Oh wait, there aren't any. I was too focused (pun intended) on actually putting the items in the car to snap any pix. Suffice it to say I slid the thing under the car, hoisted it up into position, attached a few bolts, and the result looked like this:
Image

It quickly became apparent one thing that would be "interesting" (in the Chinese-curse sort of way) was the clearance between the air filter bracket and the turbocharger:
Image
The photo doesn't show it all that well but there's about 1/4" between the end of the bracket and the turbo housing. A little repositioning of the motor increased that to maybe 3/8" and I've left it that way. I did *not* cut anything off the bracket and as far as I can tell it's never hit!

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Be alert! America needs more lerts.
Eric Law
'90 80Q with AAN and Megasquirt
'97 Saab 9000 Aero: mostly stock but ECU tweaks to add fastness
'86 4KTQ: R.I.P.


Last edited by elaw on Sat May 14, 2011 12:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: ELaw's 4KTQ project part II: the AAN motor
PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2011 9:52 am 
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So here it is, August of 2010, and the motor is in the car... just. Time for the kluging to begin!

First of many fun items was the throttle cable. I bought a cable that fits some other VAG product (I can't remember which) and the outer part of the cable and the fittings were all perfect. Just one small problem, the inner part of the cable was about 3" too long! So I cut it short and made myself a new end:
Image
Basically what you're looking at is a stainless M6 bolt with the head cut off, one end "machined down" by way of a drill and bench grinder, and a hole drilled down the middle. I passed the cable through the hole, JB-welded the cable into the bolt, then put on a nylock nut to make the necessary larger part of the fitting. Laugh all you want but it fits well and has held up in daily use for almost a year now.

Kluge #2 which you'll know about if you've read any AAN-into-B2 threads here is the radiator. The car came with a 90 Quattro radiator so it was already kluged a little to block off the fitting for the 2nd radiator (which the car came with but I removed early on). But the rad also had to be tilted both horizontally & vertically which was real easy but then I remembered it had to be attached to the car also. :wink: So I made up some extendo-brackets for the lower & side mountings:
Image
Image

...and installed a brace to the firewall, the result being this:
Image

Later I decided I wasn't comfortable with the amount of flex in the radiator mounting so I added a vertical brace from the inside rear side of the rad to one of the bolts holding the engine mount to the frame:
Image

That setup works nicely. The radiator is still all rubber-mounted, but it doesn't move around too much.

Since radiators need air to work, I added a fan. Nothing too fancy here, a cheap 14" (I think?) fan bought on the 'net and some aluminum-angle brackets:
Image

I'm also aware that radiators work best if the coolant actually flows through them. The lower hose was sorta straightforward, the upper hose less so. In one of the photos above you can see iteration #1 which worked but had a lot of rubber hoses coupled together which IMHO creates a lot of potential failure points. So I created iteration #2 in copper pipe, creating a bit of a steampunk look:
Image

_________________
Be alert! America needs more lerts.
Eric Law
'90 80Q with AAN and Megasquirt
'97 Saab 9000 Aero: mostly stock but ECU tweaks to add fastness
'86 4KTQ: R.I.P.


Last edited by elaw on Sat May 14, 2011 12:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2011 10:47 am 
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Speaking of steampunk, copper pipe and fittin's also were useful for hooking up the IAC valve and brake booster:
Image
It's hard to see in the photo but there's another piece of copper pipe coming off the bottom of the valve that goes around to the front of the radiator and connects to the hose upstream of the throttle body (stock UrS part modified).

One thing I did not document with photos (yet) is the turbo plumbing and intercooler. The car came with an approximately 8" x 2" x 18" intercooler hanging below the core support which I reused for this installation. It ain't great but there isn't much room for anything else and it works.

The other aspect of air intake is the filter & turbo inlet plumbing. This is iteration #1:
Image
It worked pretty well, but I'm not a fan of K&N filters and it was quite noisy. I know some people like their cars to sound like a shop-vac that's eaten a bunch of burritos but I'm not one of them. :D

So I said to myself, how about trying to make the 4KQ factory airbox and filter work? Seemed like a crazy idea at first but with some fabrication, modification of the airbox, and more plumbing parts from the hardware store we have this:
Image
It's not obvious from the photo but the airbox is sitting up about 1/2" from its stock location to accomodate some wiring that runs underneath it.

Much more recently, I decided to try running a MAF sensor to get around some tuning issues I was having with the Megasquirt. That mandated a redo of the intake, and here's the current setup:
Image
What you're looking at is a 4" PVC elbow feeding a very large MAF sensor. I'm sure the sensor creates a tiny amount of restriction but I don't think it's very much. And the sensor's range can accomodate 350+ horsepower.

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Be alert! America needs more lerts.
Eric Law
'90 80Q with AAN and Megasquirt
'97 Saab 9000 Aero: mostly stock but ECU tweaks to add fastness
'86 4KTQ: R.I.P.


Last edited by elaw on Sat May 14, 2011 12:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2011 10:56 am 
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And that brings us to the car's state as of today, May 2011. I've done a lot of little things here and there, found & machined a spark plug cover to fit, shortened the plug wires so they're not looping around all over the place, and a thousand other things. Here are a couple of pix that show pretty much how it is today:
Image
Image

Next on the to-do list are radiator shrouding, maybe a better fan, exhaust improvements, subframe bushings, and rust repair. Also installation of a stereo with at least tolerable sound quality.

And... something that's gonna be really cool if I ever finish it. My buddy and I are building a replacement for the computer in the instrument cluster that has a color LCD and a ton of functions, including the ability to display parameters from the Megasquirt. Here's a bad photo of the display:
Image
The colors are washed-out in that image but you get the idea.

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Be alert! America needs more lerts.
Eric Law
'90 80Q with AAN and Megasquirt
'97 Saab 9000 Aero: mostly stock but ECU tweaks to add fastness
'86 4KTQ: R.I.P.


Last edited by elaw on Sat May 14, 2011 12:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2011 11:16 am 
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none of your pics work

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PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2011 12:15 pm 
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Doh!

Note to self: when making a typo, don't cut-and-paste it again and again and again...

Should be fixed now... and thanks for letting me know!

The photos are hosted at my house and for whatever reason, they never work here.

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Be alert! America needs more lerts.
Eric Law
'90 80Q with AAN and Megasquirt
'97 Saab 9000 Aero: mostly stock but ECU tweaks to add fastness
'86 4KTQ: R.I.P.


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 Post subject: Re: Eric's 4KTQ project part II: the AAN motor
PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2011 1:41 pm 
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No worries. Just wanted to see what was going on :P Looks good!

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2003 A4 Avant 1.8t: Wife's DD
1993 //S4-VEMS & Holset HX35/40: SOLD
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=32276&start=0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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 Post subject: Re: Eric's 4KTQ project part II: the AAN motor
PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2011 1:15 pm 
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Looks awesome Eric..... Might have to get some more info on your display unit... My MFA doesnt work right now, need to set up an output based on load to drive the milage functions.

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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2011 1:16 pm 
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Thanks for the MAF calibration info.... hopefully installed this weekend.

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87 turbo 2L 16V Scirocco 13.2 @115 street tires
90 90 20v Quattro pt v8TT project
91 200 20v Turbo Quattro
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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2011 3:40 pm 
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savagerocco wrote:
Looks awesome Eric..... Might have to get some more info on your display unit... My MFA doesnt work right now, need to set up an output based on load to drive the milage functions.

Thanks! And thanks even more for not laughing (at least publicly) at the PVC parts connecting the MAF sensor! :lol:

The display unit honestly I would not recommend DIYing. It's all hand-wired and between that and writing code there's probably more time in that thing than I put into the engine swap! And it's not done yet. Of course a big part of the problem is self-created spec creep... initially it was only supposed to display time and temperature. Now it's gonna be displaying engine parameters, graphics, talking to the Megasquirt, etc. etc. It'll be cool but it's a ton of work.

I wonder if the factory board computer could be made to work with MS3 by using one of the programmable PWM outputs to generate a load signal? In the 4KQ that's just an analog voltage, isn't it? Take a PWM output and run it through a simple RC filter and there's your variable-voltage output.

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Eric Law
'90 80Q with AAN and Megasquirt
'97 Saab 9000 Aero: mostly stock but ECU tweaks to add fastness
'86 4KTQ: R.I.P.


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PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2011 12:03 pm 
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Astute readers of this thread may have noticed there's no mention of power steering!

When I swapped in the AAN motor, I installed a (SEE BELOW) power steering pump, but didn't have the correct hose to go from the pump to the rack. So I jury-rigged a hose going back to the reservoir, and for the last almost-a-year, the fluid has just been going around in circles not doing anything useful.

I'm happy to report that today that's changed! Thanks to Chris from Force5, I now have a (SEE BELOW) hose that with a little tweaking, fits wonderfully:
Image
Image

By "a little tweaking" I mean the end that connects to the rack needed to be bent a bit, but not a lot, maybe 15 degrees in one axis and 5 in the other. I think the tubing is still sound... I guess I'm gonna find out! :D

What fluid to use posed a bit of a dilemma, since the car wants ATF and the pump wants the CHF11-type stuff. So I decided to split the difference and go with Redline synthetic.

EDIT: I've received a lot of questions about the pump and hose so I did some more research to try and get some good answers. The pump came from a 1995 A6 with the 2.8-liter 12-valve engine. I think a pump from any A6 of that era with that engine will work. The hose came from a 1990 90Q with the 20-valve engine. I think a hose from any B3 car with the 20V motor or later ones with 10V motors will work. The trick is the donor car needs one of the newer-style PS pumps that looks like this:
Image
...and not one of the older "boxy" 4KQ-style pumps.

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Be alert! America needs more lerts.
Eric Law
'90 80Q with AAN and Megasquirt
'97 Saab 9000 Aero: mostly stock but ECU tweaks to add fastness
'86 4KTQ: R.I.P.


Last edited by elaw on Thu May 31, 2012 5:58 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Eric's 4KTQ project part II: the AAN motor
PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2011 4:51 pm 
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What pressure does the a6 pump work at?


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PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2011 6:09 am 
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Too much! 8)

It's a 125 bar pump which I think is true of almost all later pumps.

My short-term solution to the problem is to be careful to not hold the steering wheel against the stops which will avoid creating high pressure in the system.

For a longer-term better solution, when I get the $$ I'm going to buy another pump and try modifying it.

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'90 80Q with AAN and Megasquirt
'97 Saab 9000 Aero: mostly stock but ECU tweaks to add fastness
'86 4KTQ: R.I.P.


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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2011 4:16 am 
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Just an FYI for anyone reading & interested in doing this, Chris tells me that PS hose came from a '90 90q 20-valve. I *think* one from any 20V B3 would work but don't quote me on that! :D

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Eric Law
'90 80Q with AAN and Megasquirt
'97 Saab 9000 Aero: mostly stock but ECU tweaks to add fastness
'86 4KTQ: R.I.P.


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 Post subject: Re: Eric's 4KTQ project part II: the AAN motor
PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2011 12:44 pm 
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mach 2 with my hair on fire
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Posts: 2765
Location: Milton, Canada
Aaahhhhh.... 4kq and Fuchs, classic combo! Looks great!

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Martin Pajak
www.quattro.ca
82 Ur-q - SQ project, long term
82 4000 2-door
83 80 q - Euro 2-door!!
85 Ur-q - Euro with 3B
86 4000 quattro with 59,000km on the clock
86 5000CD quattro avant, all original
91 CQ winter sled
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 Post subject: Re: Eric's 4KTQ project part II: the AAN motor
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 7:00 am 
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mach 2 with my hair on fire
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Location: Sitting in traffic North of Boston, MA
So here's a question for the experienced folks here... if I wanted to put a different, larger Audi airbox into the car, preferably a reasonably-priced one (ie not one of those unobtanium sport Quattro ones), do I have any options? Not having to cut any sheetmetal would be nice, although I know that scenario is pretty unlikely.

I hooked up a pressure sensor and did a little datalogging, and I'm getting about 0.7 PSI of pressure drop through the air filter. It's almost like, I don't know, it was designed for a 115 horsepower motor instead of a 250 HP one! :D

So I'd love to toss something in there that flows more betterly. I'd really like something made by Audi with an easily replaceable filter element, not interested in cone filters or the like.

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Be alert! America needs more lerts.
Eric Law
'90 80Q with AAN and Megasquirt
'97 Saab 9000 Aero: mostly stock but ECU tweaks to add fastness
'86 4KTQ: R.I.P.


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 Post subject: Re: Eric's 4KTQ project part II: the AAN motor
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 7:22 am 
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mach 2 with my hair on fire
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ralleyquattro wrote:
Aaahhhhh.... 4kq and Fuchs, classic combo! Looks great!

Thanks!

Now if only I could get some decent tires on it... right now the car's "summer" tires are Nokian WRs. I guess I'll be in good shape if a snowstorm suddenly pops up in July, but dry-grip-wise the tires leave a bit to be desired.

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Be alert! America needs more lerts.
Eric Law
'90 80Q with AAN and Megasquirt
'97 Saab 9000 Aero: mostly stock but ECU tweaks to add fastness
'86 4KTQ: R.I.P.


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 Post subject: Re: Eric's 4KTQ project part II: the AAN motor
PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 10:54 am 
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mach 2 with my hair on fire
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Joined: Thu Oct 22, 2009 10:59 am
Posts: 2281
Location: Sitting in traffic North of Boston, MA
Well... it looks like this thread, and the car, are about to reach "the end of the road".

I just bought myself a very spiffy 1990 80 Quattro that is almost completely rust-free and will be inheriting much of the mechanicals from this car. I love this one to death, but if a car gets a flat tire and you can't jack it up because the jack will go through the rocker panels, that's not a good thing.

I'll probably drive this one through the winter just to get the last few miles out of it, but next spring look for a new thread chronicling how I hurt myself multiple ways trying to swap everything over... :D

...and at the same time, keep an eye on the "swap meet" forum for the leftover bits from this one! :D :D

_________________
Be alert! America needs more lerts.
Eric Law
'90 80Q with AAN and Megasquirt
'97 Saab 9000 Aero: mostly stock but ECU tweaks to add fastness
'86 4KTQ: R.I.P.


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