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Eric's '90 80QT: rustic bits
http://www.motorgeek.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=42240
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Author:  elaw [ Wed Aug 17, 2011 6:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Eric's '90 80QT: rustic bits

While I love my 4KTQ (http://www.motorgeek.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=36595) more than anything, time apparently doesn't share my feelings - it's got some significant rust problems that for some reason aren't getting any better with age.

So I was toying with the idea of getting something newer when "it" came along. "It" is a 1990 80 quattro that is almost completely rust free! Something you see from time to time on the left coast but very rarely here in New England. So I grabbed it! :-)

Here are a few photos of the beauty:
Image
Image
Image

There are a few more photos on my website: http://www.thelawsplace.com/Audi80Aug11/

The short-term plan for this car is to have it sit in the driveway over the winter, maybe fixing a thing or two along the way, while my bank account recovers from the purchase.

The long-term plan is to transplant a lot of the goodies from the 4KTQ. Although the 80's got a nice warmed-over 2.6 stroker motor in it, it really doesn't hold a candle to the AAN in the 4000. So that's coming over first. Later maybe the transmission, I think I might give the torsen a try for a winter to see what I think of it, then decide whether to put the locker in.

The 4KQ also has a very nice 5-lug and big-brake setup I'd like to transplant but I'm tearing my hair out trying to figure out how to do it. The 80's got coilovers and nice goodies like 2-piece uprights and cast control arms I'd like to keep, but it seems a lot of the parts are incompatible so we'll have to see.

Anyhow that's it for now, you probably won't be reading much from me here until next spring. Although if anyone has any input on the 5-lug swap I'd love to hear it!

Author:  pilihp2 [ Wed Aug 17, 2011 6:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Eric's 4KTQ loses 3920...

the problem I'd see with the 5 lug swap is the 4k uses axle nuts and the 80 would use axle bolts so the hubs work differently.
sweet lookin ride!

Author:  elaw [ Wed Aug 17, 2011 6:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Eric's 4KTQ loses 3920...

Yeah I know. It seems like *everything* is different. The 4KQ has the 108mm inner CVs all around which AFAIK means it has axles that won't work with the 80 outer CVs and as you already stated the 4K CVs won't work with the 80 hubs. And apparently the 108mm flanges can't be put on the 01A transmission. :(

It's almost as if they didn't intend for this to be done or something! :P

Author:  elaw [ Wed Aug 17, 2011 6:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Eric's 4KTQ loses 3920...

BTW when this project actually starts happening there's gonna be a lot of nice leftover items for sale, including that stroker motor which has about 30K on it.

Author:  Ronald G Wainwright+ [ Wed Aug 17, 2011 6:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Eric's 4KTQ loses 3920...

info on the stroker?

Author:  elaw [ Thu Aug 18, 2011 4:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Eric's 4KTQ loses 3920...

Well... the engine was gone over in January of 2004, when the car had 193K on it (it has 224K now). At the time, they installed a 2.6 liter shortblock from Eurospec, a Blau Sport 272 cam, new valve guides, lifters, and springs* as well as a new timing belt and a bunch of other random small stuff. The head was cleaned, machined, and lightly ported, and the flywheel was lightened. It also got a new clutch at the time but when I sell the motor that will not come with it. The motor was broken-in on dino oil then the owner switched to synthetic. I think recently he switched back to dino oil but when you take the oil cap off the inside of the motor is so clean you could eat off it!

*The paperwork from the shop says "Complete valve job with replacement of..." so presumably the valves themselves were at least lapped.

A few photos:
Image Image Image

Author:  Lord_Verminaard [ Thu Aug 18, 2011 6:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Eric's 4KTQ loses 3920...

Wow, that's a lot of hardware there. How does it run?

Brendan

Author:  elaw [ Thu Aug 18, 2011 6:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Eric's 4KTQ loses 3920...

Pretty well once it gets started! It's a little finicky to get going - the CIS is pretty tired and I'm sure a set of injectors/seals/etc would help a lot. It pulls strongly and idles nicely - it doesn't have that lumpy idle you sometimes get with a performance cam.

Author:  savagerocco [ Thu Aug 18, 2011 12:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Eric's 4KTQ loses 3920...

Looks like fun. The cv axles really aren't that different. One has a threaded shaft going thru it and the other has the bolt coming in. They should interchange as long as the size and spline count are the same. The inner joints on the 016 are usually 100 mm joints, I have 016 flanges in my 01e swap using the stock 90 axels, so I dont see a problem there. The urs4 front hubs will swap out with just a little machining and then just the b5 rear hubs and you are set. It has all mostly been done before...

Author:  HeartlessNomad12 [ Thu Aug 18, 2011 12:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Eric's 4KTQ loses 3920...

WOW Rust free?? I always forget what an issue that can be. Out here rust would never cross my mind when looking at a car. Nice clean car tho

Author:  elaw [ Thu Aug 18, 2011 5:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Eric's 4KTQ loses 3920...

savagerocco wrote:
Looks like fun. The cv axles really aren't that different. One has a threaded shaft going thru it and the other has the bolt coming in. They should interchange as long as the size and spline count are the same. The inner joints on the 016 are usually 100 mm joints, I have 016 flanges in my 01e swap using the stock 90 axels, so I dont see a problem there. The urs4 front hubs will swap out with just a little machining and then just the b5 rear hubs and you are set. It has all mostly been done before...

Well... that's what I had hoped when I bought the car, but if my research is correct it just ain't so! Remember, the 4K already has a 5-lug conversion, done with a lovely mix of UrQ and 5000Q hardware.

Here's what I've found (mostly coming from the EMPI catalog which has a ton of good info, if it's correct):
The hubs (both F and R) on the 4K have 26 splines, the 80 outer CVs have 33 splines so no match (never mind the bolt-vs.-nut thing).
The outer CVs (F & R) on the 4K have 28 splines for the axle, the 80 axles have 30 splines so no match.
The inner CVs (F & R, both 108mm) on the 4K have 28 splines for the axles, the 80 axles have 33 splines (to mate with its 100mm CVs) so no match.
As mentioned above, the 4K inner CVs are 108mm and apparently you can't put 108mm drive flanges on an 01A.

It seems like if I want to keep the 80 uprights, my only hope is that both cars have 75mm wheel bearings at all 4 corners. So theoretically maybe, I could put the 016 into the 80, along with all the CVs, axles, and hubs that are currently on the 4K. Of course that would leave me with a car that has no brakes, so the other big question is whether the brake hardware could be transferred (as in, is the offset between the caliper mountings and the rotors the same, etc.).

Author:  savagerocco [ Thu Aug 18, 2011 5:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Eric's 4KTQ loses 3920...

I have spent several good conversation with the guy at empi trying to find axles for swaps, he is good. There is always a way, hell, Hank has welded two different axles together to make one he needed, they worked. I think you are building this up to be a bigger deal than it will be once you get it sorted.

Author:  Driggs [ Fri Aug 19, 2011 5:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Eric's 4KTQ loses 3920...

elaw wrote:
Pretty well once it gets started! It's a little finicky to get going - the CIS is pretty tired and I'm sure a set of injectors/seals/etc would help a lot. It pulls strongly and idles nicely - it doesn't have that lumpy idle you sometimes get with a performance cam.


Lets put that stroker in my 4k this winter :)

Author:  Lord_Verminaard [ Fri Aug 19, 2011 6:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Eric's 4KTQ loses 3920...

Turbo that stroker and it would be a monster indeed.

Brendan

Author:  elaw [ Fri Aug 19, 2011 7:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Eric's 4KTQ loses 3920...

Indeed... although presumably it's got 10:1 pistons which is kinda high compression for a turbo, unless you're gonna be running race gas.

Re selling it: if I got the right offer, especially from someone local, I'd definitely consider it. My first choice would be to keep the car drivable over the winter, but there are some expensive things I want to do in connection with swapping the AAN over that need funding...

Author:  PRA4WX [ Fri Aug 19, 2011 9:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Eric's 4KTQ loses 3920...

elaw wrote:
Indeed... although presumably it's got 10:1 pistons which is kinda high compression for a turbo, unless you're gonna be running race gas.

Psssst! E85!

Author:  death 4kqt [ Fri Aug 19, 2011 9:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Eric's 4KTQ loses 3920...

HeartlessNomad12 wrote:
WOW Rust free?? I always forget what an issue that can be. Out here rust would never cross my mind when looking at a car. Nice clean car tho

it is unbelievable how fast the rust works around here. I bought my truck from north carolina, with no rust. Already has a rotting cab corner after less than 2 years!! Of course, Ford sheet metal is complete shat, audis last a lot better, but they still rot over time.

Author:  elaw [ Fri Aug 19, 2011 10:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Eric's 4KTQ loses 3920...

PRA4WX wrote:
elaw wrote:
Indeed... although presumably it's got 10:1 pistons which is kinda high compression for a turbo, unless you're gonna be running race gas.

Psssst! E85!

Nice stuff if you can get it! Nearest station to me is 1/2 to 1 hour drive each way, depending on traffic.

Author:  elaw [ Fri Aug 19, 2011 10:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Eric's 4KTQ loses 3920...

death 4kqt wrote:
HeartlessNomad12 wrote:
WOW Rust free?? I always forget what an issue that can be. Out here rust would never cross my mind when looking at a car. Nice clean car tho

it is unbelievable how fast the rust works around here. I bought my truck from north carolina, with no rust. Already has a rotting cab corner after less than 2 years!! Of course, Ford sheet metal is complete shat, audis last a lot better, but they still rot over time.

Do the American manufacturers consider rotting cab corners a "feature" on trucks? My coworker has a 1990-something GMC with the same problem, I'm talking holes a raccoon could walk through.

My '97 Saab on the other hand, which made it here (MA) from New Jersey via North Carolina and Florida barely has anything that even resembles rust.

Author:  bimmerboy [ Fri Aug 19, 2011 11:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Eric's 4KTQ loses 3920...

Meh SAABs rust plenty too, be careful. It really seems like Audi is really the only one that has figured out rust protection.

Author:  elaw [ Tue Nov 22, 2011 5:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Eric's 4KTQ loses 3920...

Okay... so... time to resurrect this thread for a question!

I've found a buyer for the engine in this car and we're probably going to pull it this weekend. I'm debating whether I want to pull the engine+trans as an assembly or just yank the motor and leave the tranny in the car (for now - eventually my 016 will probably be going in there). So here's the question: if I pull just the motor, what's the best way to support the transmission? Not just temporarily while the work is being done, but "permanently" so the car can be pushed around the driveway until I get to the next phase of this project next spring?

Author:  elaw [ Tue Feb 21, 2012 6:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Eric's 4KTQ loses 3920...

Late winter 2012... time for an update!

On the engine-removal thing, once I realized how easily the core support is to remove, I decided to just yank the motor out the front and leave the tranny in the car. Turns out it more or less balances so supporting it is not an issue.

Otherwise, progress on the project has consisted mostly of plotting and scheming and researching and planning and accumulating a ton of parts!

It turns out my decision to leave the tranny in the car was a bad one as I came across an UrQ transmission and differential for pretty reasonable money and it was local so there was no shipping cost. So the 01A and rear diff will be coming out and be replaced with the other bits. As many of you know, that involves some serious challenges - the shift linkage is different and the UrQ diff has 108mm drive flanges that don't match with anything ever put on a B3. The shift linkage I think I've devised a unique solution for... I'll post pix once it's fabricated.

The "108mm rear diff drive flange problem" is more challenging. I got my hands on a set of early 4KQ rear axles with the 108mm inner CVs but the outer CVs on those axles won't work with the B3 hubs. And, my research indicates (I haven't actually tried yet) that the B3 outer CVs won't fit those axles. So I've identified 3 possible ways to solve the problem...

Way #1 is to use older-style wheel bearings and hubs in the rear, that would talk to the CVs on the 4KQ axles. That should work, but I'd like to keep the door open for possibly retrofitting ABS to this car which those CVs wouldn't support.

Way #2 is to have someone (probably Hank) make up a set of "frankenaxles", mating the 4KQ inner end and a B3 outer end. I think that would meet my goals but there might be a better option:

...which is way #3. My research indicates that the drive axles from a FWD B5 A4 or Passat meet all the requirements except for length. They have 108mm inner CVs, and outer CVs that might fit the 80's hubs as-is, otherwise the wheel end of the axles has a 30-spline end that should mate with the B3 outer CV joints. The axles would have to be shortened, but if it works I think this would be a good option and would preserve those rare early-4KQ axles for someone who's converting a 4KQ.

By the way, here's a photo of my axle collection so far... :D
Image

Author:  elaw [ Tue Feb 21, 2012 6:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Eric's 4KTQ loses 3920...

So did I mention I'm going to do a 5-lug conversion too? :wtf:

It's a decision I've struggled with, but among other reasons I've got a really nice set of Fuchs wheels that I'd like to keep using. The 80 right now has a nice set of Borbets but they're not *as* nice. So look for the Borbets on the "swap meet" forum sometime in the spring! 8)

The fun part is deciding what hardware to use for the conversion, especially as most of the info I could find on B3 5-lug conversions is for cars with 20V engines that have front knuckles, bearings, and hubs different from what's on my car. And in the rear, most people doing 5-lug conversions aren't also installing UrQ rear differentials.

The rear stuff I more or less covered in my last post. For the front, what I've decided to do is instead of being overly creative, swap the knuckles/bearings/hubs from a CQ and do the conversion more or less per Littlegreek's writeup. I say "more or less" because I'm also installing the UrQ transmission which requires different axles which makes things a little more interesting.

Anyhow, here's my "recipe" for the front. If anyone notices anything that won't work, please let me know!
  • CQ steering knuckles
  • CQ wheel bearings
  • UrS4 hubs, machined as per Littlegreek's writeup
  • Brake rotors from 5KQ/UrQ/UrS6 (276x25mm or 280x22mm)
  • 5000 front calipers that are currently on my 4KQ
  • CQ outer CV joints
  • CQ rear axles (which are supposed to be the right length to use with the 016?)(maybe just need one side?)
  • CQ inner CV joints (100mm)
  • 100mm drive flanges on the transmission

Author:  elaw [ Tue Feb 21, 2012 7:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Eric's 4KTQ loses 3920...

Incidentally... not sure if this has any value to anyone, but I created a nice little spreadsheet comparing brake-rotor options when doing a 5-lug conversion on a B3. It's attached.

Attachments:
Audi rotors.zip [8.17 KiB]
Downloaded 284 times

Author:  DE80q [ Tue Feb 21, 2012 7:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Eric's 4KTQ loses 3920...

I have been looking into do a 5 lug swap onto my 80q as well. Have you noticed that the front and rear hubs on the b3 10v's are the same? My tech and I are both converting B3 10v's to 5 lug and we are going to try useing 4 B5 rear hubs. We think it will work, since we know it works on the rear, and the front uses the same part # hub.

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