Car won't go into gear while running after FW and PP install, any ideas?

LarryFlint · Sep 1, 2004

It needs to be a 3B not ANN.

the_natrix · Sep 1, 2004

thats exactly right, we are trying to use an AAN flywheel here, essentially it should work, minus the 6mm offset.

what we are trying to do here is to work out the offset problem, the reason we went with fidanza is due to the cost. it is cheaper to get these flywheels then to pay others for basically the same part with a cost of times 2.

the 6mm offset shouldnt be a big deal, the transmission can accept it, the engine takes it no problem, all we need to do is get the stinking throw out system to match up, which someone already did (jorgen).
all we need is a plan of action and it would probably be fixed for less then 50 bucks and some time.

shims on the crank is a BAD idea, as it will only make the flywheel stick out farther which is the opposite of what we want to do. right?

thats my take on things.
nate

derracuda · Sep 1, 2004

newt said:
LarryFlint said:

I would call Fucdanzi, and tell them to get you the right F%#@ part.

Click to expand...

They'll just say it's the right part, but being used in the 'wrong application' I'm willing to bet. :x

bingo. this isn't fidanza's fault at all, so i wouldn't bad mouth them at all. they sent me exactly what i ordered, which is a 7A flywheel. i didn't know there was a difference. i'm gonna look into sending them my old MC FW for the next time round' :wink:

and yeah, shims on the flywheel is a bad idea as that moves the timing pins out of the way and you wouldn;t get starter engagement.

RallyDogRacing · Sep 1, 2004

I don't think we tied using AAN pressure plate, disk, release bearing and arm... That might work but I'm thinking there's a splines issue there.

Me and QShipQ spent a bunch of time trying to reason our way through it and we were stuck. Our solution in the end was to have Fidanza give us an engineering answer as to whether or not they could re-machine the existing flywheel to match the 3B dimensions. THey said they could but if memory serves it got a bit pricier than we were comfortable with.

It's a nice paper weight for us now. I sure as heck hope you guys find a solution.

cuatrokoop · Sep 1, 2004

the_natrix said:
shims on the crank is a BAD idea, as it will only make the flywheel stick out farther which is the opposite of what we want to do. right?

That's kinda what I was thinking...

LarryFlint · Sep 1, 2004

Do thay make a 3B? we have modified the throw out.
But why modifi a part. keep it simple

cuatrokoop · Sep 1, 2004

The 7A FW is meant for an 01A transmission, which is why you are having problems (duh)........Totally different release setups. People with an 01A transmission shouldn't have the problems you are Derek, assuming they use the Fidanza 7A FW, Sachs (or the Luk disc, which is what my car had in it) disc and pressure plate.

So, you 016 guys need to work something out, and you 01A guys can ignore this stuff (for the most part).

derracuda · Sep 1, 2004

PROBLEM SOLVED

it was the aforementioned 6mm of clearance needed. i went to my local body shop and got shims to give aabout a 6.5mm gap between the belhousing and engine, bolted er up tight and set it on the ground and she disengages properly. and it's cold too. you know how when the oil's cold in the tranny it likes to hang up goin' into reverse? didn't even do that :wink:

corrective measure on the way, after i pull the engine back out *grumblecakes*

i'll have pics of what i change for you guys

newt · Sep 1, 2004

Good! Well, sucks that you gotta yank the lump again, but good that it can be fixed by just some quick work to the throwout arm prolly.

the_natrix · Sep 1, 2004

im personally not too worried about it, i mean between derek, me and the rest of us, we are going to find a simple solution... shouldnt be to bad, derek and his dad have alot of automotive experience, and id definatly give it a crack once i get my flywheel and pressureplate down here.

my best guess is a different release fork, or a modification to the release fork's pivot point would work, failing that, why couldnt we take the flywheel to a shop and have them machine it back lets say 4 mm? auto machine shops have cnc equipment to machine flywheels smooth all the time, i had my deep dish done and he took a whole 1mm off it, along with the upper lip so they dimention from the pressure plate mount to the disk surface stayed the same... whats stopping them from machining 6mm off? hell we get a lighter flywheel, and it works properly... the only thing to be concerned about would be the holes for mounting the steel disk surface back on. hell they are probably already drilled right through so we dont have to worry about that either. im sure derek knows if they are or not drilled through.

last time i had my flywheel machined, it cost me 46 bucks and 2 hours of my time.

nate

the_natrix · Sep 1, 2004

looks like i missed the last 3 posts, lol, so its good that its verified that 6mm is needed. i dont like the idea of 6mm shims on the mounting bolts, lol, whats actually lining up the motor and tranny? the bolts, or the dowel pins? anyways, its good that we know exactly what to do here.

derek should know what to do...

nate

derracuda · Sep 1, 2004

break time, it took me a lil' over two hours to get er' back out, intake off, and a bunch of coolant on the floor....arg (i hate coolant, too sticky)

so what i'm gonna do it follow larry's advice and just take the material off the TO arm. there's plenty of meat there to work with :wink:

the wear surface holes on the flywheels do go all the way through, so machining 6mm off is a possibility, but they are back cut, so i dunno how that would affect the overall integrity of the flywheel.

billzcat1 · Sep 2, 2004

A bit late to this discussion, but isn't the S4 2.7tt transmission spacer 11mm thick, not 6mm?

Jorgen · Sep 2, 2004

My application is a very different, it was early 016 to ABZ with a six speed V8 clutch in between. This combo is no good, there is simply no room for the clutch to engage. With it bolted together the fork bottoms out and disengage the clutch, after excessive force augmented with power tools was applied to the fork and bellhousing there was some clearance. Unfortunately the release bearing bottomed out before the clutch would engage too, it was pretty tricky getting those last mm?s of stroke. I even had to grind an mm from the new recessed allen bolts I used for the plastic support.

I haven't seen the stuff you guys are working with but I think that it sounds like removing 3mm material from the fork to add clearance to the PP and to add some material to the tabs pushing on the release bearing to make it protrude further. Should be a simple job. Possibly relocating the pivoting point for the fork a bit too.

Or you could go with a Saab 900 (the old ugly 900 series) hydraulic actuator/release bearing and make an adapter for it to fit the Audi (if one is even needed!). Don't forget to make a support for the rear of the assembly, the rear section will be pushed out by the pressure otherwise. This is what half of all racecars in Sweden is using. Think: http://store.summitracing.com/default.a ... we&x=0&y=0 + OEM quality - price - shims - looks.

derracuda · Sep 2, 2004

ok some pitcha's here http://www.motorgeek.com/modules.php?se ... _photo.php

here's the dealio, it still not working properly. there's still a lil' drag on the clutch disc when we put it in gear and put one foot depressing the clutch pedal, and the other foot holding the brake on, and it in gear, and turning the motor over with a ratchet, plugs out. when it's turned over out of gear, it goes over pretty easy, but when done as described above, it drags a bit. hmmmm

first off here's some(and all were taken from the bellhousing mounting surface) measurements:

from BHMS to TO bearing in rest position(or all the way in) : 87mm
" " with pedal depressed : 76mm

now simulating the 6mm worth of spacers i put between the engine and tranny
from BHMS to TO bearing in the rest position : 81mm
" " with pedal depressed : 71 mm

these measurements were taken at the clutch slave pivot (that flat spot) to the BHMS

BHMS to CSP all the way in : 154mm
BHMS to CSP pedal depressed : 135mm

so that leaves a CSP stroke of 19mm with about 9.5-10mm stroke at the TO bearing, meanwhile, we're only seeing about 3mm of travel at the PP wear surface when looking through one of the little inspection holes in the side of the tranny. 9-10mm of stroke at the center of the clutch fork isn't seeming to change the geometry of the stroke that much.leaving me to think it's within the slave cylinder.

the next step, we started off with a clutch slave push rod length of like 85.5mm, first tried shortening it up about 3mm, the drag is a little less. so we go three more mm's, but it doesn't get any better.

then i put a single spacer back in between the tranny and the engine, now the clutch pedal bottoms out(not on the carpet like usual, but up a little), and the drag is still there( and by drag i mean that when the motor is being turned over i can't slide the gear shifter into gear)

so here's what i surmise. after talking with my buddy thenatrix and him suggesting that possibly by pushing the slave cylinder cup in too far, it's not allowing for enough fluid volume to give a full push, correct(possibly

) ?? so, when i took all that material off the clutch fork the first time i shortened the slave cylinders reach, right? then i took material off the clutch push rod making things no better. shoot, now i need another clutch fork to try just shortening the push rod.

:tard: :tard: we'll get it figured out, even if i do end up in a mental ward going, but it's only 6mm's between the engine and tranny, it should be working, GAAAAAAAHHHHHH :bashtard:

cuatrokoop · Sep 2, 2004

billzcat1 said:
A bit late to this discussion, but isn't the S4 2.7tt transmission spacer 11mm thick, not 6mm?

11.2mm actually, and is found on any car with a 6spd in it that I can remember (already covered that base a few posts earlier :wink

.

You shouldn't have affected the volume transfer from the clutch master to the clutch slave, because you didn't touch the master, and the push rod doesn't affect the piston inside (or at least it shouldn't). Why it bottomed early, I'm not really sure, other than for some mechanical reason it bottomed out (release arm ran out of motion, something).

derracuda · Sep 2, 2004

the only reason it would have bottomed out is due to less arm travel. and an 11mm would be waaaaayy too much :wink:

the_natrix · Sep 2, 2004

hey derek, did you think that the slight drag might be ok, i mean, did you try firing it up ect? may it just needs to be worn in a little

hehe

here is my plan when i get my disk guys...
bolt up the system, modify nothing.
remove that stupid roll pin that holds the slave inplace, and replace it with a bolt and nut combo.

slide the slave cyl back 6mm and hold it there mechanically.
test the clutch.
see if moving it out or in more helps.
find the right location.
measure its spot. and then remove clutch slave cyl
grind new grove into the slave cyl where the mounting bolt holds it
wala... done

should this not work, i would only grind 3mm off the release fork. remember, the lever drops its movement by about 50% so removed 3mm is like moving the engine away 6mm... right? so start from the generous side and if things dont work, it only takes more time, instead of taking a new release fork

i really wish i had the flywheel and pp here so i could help you guys by physically seeing what i am working with, but from what i see its not bad. derek almost has his working right.
hey derek, think about this.

drill and tap 2 holes where the release bearing sits. and install some setscrews in there, that way you can make the release fork's depth adjustable.... then when you find the good adjustment depth, you can either locktight. ( nah) or brase, YEA!!! them in. that way its perfect...

nate

derracuda · Sep 2, 2004

shoot, so i may have forgotten to take into account that double measurement and took off way too much at the To bearing mounting points...arg. so today i went to the wrecking yard and snagged another clutch fork and a slave (but no stinkin' push to be found :tard: ) and i'll play around with it some more today.

derracuda · Sep 3, 2004

can anyone tell me if they know hwo much travel the pressure plate needs to totally clear the clutch disc so as to allow the tranny to be put into gear? isn't there normally a little drag on the disc?

i drilled a hole in the bottom of the bellhousing so i could see what's taking place inside there, and there really isn't enoughtravel of the arm to change geometry (seems like, but i could be wrong). and when i took big 24" screwdriver (the real snap on black handled one :wink: ) and applied pressure to the bottom of the clutch fork while my dad turned the motor over, he didn't notice a change in the amount of drag on caused by clutch interferance. so could i possibly be at where i am supposed to be?

i'm trying to get an idea to save putting it all back together again to see what works and what doesn't. trying to save steps(and knuckles) i guess

Car won't go into gear while running after FW and PP install, any ideas?

LarryFlint

the_natrix

derracuda

RallyDogRacing

cuatrokoop

LarryFlint

cuatrokoop

derracuda

newt

the_natrix

the_natrix

derracuda

billzcat1

Jorgen

derracuda

cuatrokoop

derracuda

the_natrix

derracuda

derracuda

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