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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
One of the goals for my garage sale 20vt project was to keep costs down by using the 7A head. Some say you don't need the water manifold, but I guess it certainly can't hurt :D

So Ken scanned the flange for me off an OEM water manifold using a ruler in the image for scale. Using that drawing I came up with a template so I could figure out where I would need to drill things (yes, the odd-triangularish part is drawn horriby..):



The basic idea is that the place where the coolant neck bolts on the 7A is the same shape as the water manifold junction on the 3B at that spot.. so that means only 3 other pipes need to have ports drilled into the head.. a total of 6 holes if you include the 3 6mm threaded holes to secure the manifold to the head. Here's an image I photoshoped where one of the sets of holes needs to go:



Along this process I discovered something else... Knowing I wouldn't want to pay $350 (after my discount :eek: ) for the OEM piece I found out that the water ports that audi bolts to the back of the 10v blocks for the heater core connections and such is the SAME PIECE!!! :woowoo:

Here's a pic of one of those 10v water outlets onto the 20v head:



So now all I have to do is scrounge 2 others of those and either weld some pipe to them to join them together with the 7A stock water neck or just use hose right from there into some kind of junction block.

more pictures here: http://www.mswanson.com/images/?mode=album&album=Audi/4ktq/20vt_project/water_manifold

Just thought I'd share....
 

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hey marc,I'll do you a big favor and save you tons of money in this project. ok,first go get a cardboard box approximatly 4-5 inches larger than the head on all sides. then carefully wrap the head in medium density foam so it fits nice and tight in the box ( make sure to tape the foam as you go,it makes it easier) then tape the box up. then proceed to the you nearest ups or post office and send it to
Derek wanting
212 fifth steet
silvrton,OR 98731

I promise I will take good care of it for you, promise to clean it well and feed it plenty of high octane with the occasianal leaded fuel treats, and will send pics of it installed in my beloved 4kq.I know you know this is best for you and the head, thanks,Derek
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
That's a generous offer, Derek. Maybe we should trade? Send me a comeplete AAN motor and I'll box it on up and ship it out :D :bullshits:
 

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haha, I'll see what i can round up :D
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
another *slightly* more serious :)lol:) addendum to this thread..

I've been communicating with Ken who originally sent me the scan of the water manifold and he has agreed to let me borrow his water manifold so I can make more accurate measurements on it and verify 100% that the flanges are the same as the 10v pipes I wrote about earlier.

My plan will be to make a life-size drill template using the IM bolt holes for reference so that you can easily drill the holes in the correct locations using a paper template. Accuracy won't really mater for my setup since I probably won't use the real 3B water manifold but while I'm putting the work into it anway I might as well make it easy for people to get it spot on for those that have a line on used manifolds.
 

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Marc, just saw this, good work, keep me posted!
 

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Ok, I'm neck deep in this issue myself currently, here's where I'm at (I'll snap some pics tomorrow to bring this more to light (BTW, Marc, I think your water manifold pic is flipped mirror image, right?):

- Using the 7A water outlet and 3B intake manifold, the end of the water outlet comes withing 3/16" of the #2 or 3 intake runner, meaning that you'd be lucky to fit a 1/4" walled hose over it, and if you did, it would be touching, not very ideal. So even if you wanted to go w/o the water manifold, IMO, you'd still need to address the fit here.

- I thought about just drilling and tapping the head with NPT and using NPT-AN fittings and hose, but I don't want it to look too "squirley". :wtf:

-Marc, your idea is good about using the fittings, I think I'll do something similar, though I'd like to still use the fittings (say 3/8" NPT) and build a slick "water rail" out of 1/2" or 5/8" alum tubing, and use tube nuts on the end to interface with the fittings on the head. There is the issue of tying it back into the water neck outlet.

-I think I'd like to cut the beaded end off the stock 7A water outlet and extend it using some mandrel bent 1 3/8" alum tubing, thus the end of it will still have the factory beaded hose interface, it will just be extended to a spot that is more convenient and better fitting (sorta similar to the AAN water manifold, how it relocates the water outlet hose location).

-Then, I'll tie the water rail into the now severed fitting at the head. Thus it will be one big assembly that will fasten to the head using -8 tube nuts and the 3 stock 6mm bolts. Figure the whole thing will cost $50 in parts and mostly fabrication time, but will be strong, compact and done right.

Anyhoo, that's where I'm at with it. After being reminded how much effort Audi Sport put into the IMSA head, I think this is a good step towards heat management of a high output motor.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
JShadzi said:
Ok, I'm neck deep in this issue myself currently, here's where I'm at (I'll snap some pics tomorrow to bring this more to light (BTW, Marc, I think your water manifold pic is flipped mirror image, right?):
which pic? Nevermind, quite obvious now that my eyes are open :D The scan is indeed a mirror image. The giveaway is the fact that there is only one 'circular' water port toward the front of the car from the triangular water port, 2 toward the back of the head. I'll correct the image in the post to avoid confusion, as well as update the image gallery links since I moved the photos around a bit.

- Using the 7A water outlet and 3B intake manifold, the end of the water outlet comes withing 3/16" of the #2 or 3 intake runner, meaning that you'd be lucky to fit a 1/4" walled hose over it, and if you did, it would be touching, not very ideal. So even if you wanted to go w/o the water manifold, IMO, you'd still need to address the fit here.
hmm, obviously hadn't run into that myself yet. Whether or not this matters in my case depends on my choice of intake manifold (still up in the air at this point).

- I thought about just drilling and tapping the head with NPT and using NPT-AN fittings and hose, but I don't want it to look too "squirley". :wtf:
Wiz might get upset, too :slap:

Well you could always use male pipe thread adapters to 'stand pipe' (I think that's what they call it), then use a tube nut, thus immitaing the setup you are contemplating with the 10v heater core nipple. I guess that's an option if drilling the head to fit those 10v parts becomes a pain. Thinking out loud, as always ;)

-Marc, your idea is good about using the fittings, I think I'll do something similar, though I'd like to still use the fittings (say 3/8" NPT) and build a slick "water rail" out of 1/2" or 5/8" alum tubing, and use tube nuts on the end to interface with the fittings on the head. There is the issue of tying it back into the water neck outlet.
maybe hijack one of the sensor ports to pipe a junction to the 'water rail'? I have to imagine space is tight in that area. a disconnectable deal at each 'runner' would be neat, but might not be practical to remove with anything else installed on the motor. Why is it that you don't want to go with the same 'unbolt' type deal with the stock manifold? Not that I have anything against using more AN parts in my engine bay :p

-I think I'd like to cut the beaded end off the stock 7A water outlet and extend it using some mandrel bent 1 3/8" alum tubing, thus the end of it will still have the factory beaded hose interface, it will just be extended to a spot that is more convenient and better fitting (sorta similar to the AAN water manifold, how it relocates the water outlet hose location).
excellent idea. And by doing this you can make your choice of 'junction' to the other water 'runners'.

-Then, I'll tie the water rail into the now severed fitting at the head. Thus it will be one big assembly that will fasten to the head using -8 tube nuts and the 3 stock 6mm bolts. Figure the whole thing will cost $50 in parts and mostly fabrication time, but will be strong, compact and done right.
Ah, got ya. So you would unbolt the 3 10v water ports then disconnect the tube nuts connecting to the main triangular port to remove the assembly.

Anyhoo, that's where I'm at with it. After being reminded how much effort Audi Sport put into the IMSA head, I think this is a good step towards heat management of a high output motor.
Agreed. It might not seem like it at times, but I imagine Audi does things like this for a reason, especially on the race cars. Keep me posted!
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
oh yeah, one other image for reference I found somewhere on the marketplace. An S4 motor showing the holes for the water manifold

 

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The 3B/etc water manifold actually goes INTO the head, does not flush mount. I have several pics of one I had found on ebay.de a couple months ago. I know I mentioned this earlier (that the 20vt man. fits in the head).
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Yep, I'm aware that the manifold goes in the head. Just like those 10v water ports me and javad are talking about rigging into a manifold.

Excellent pics of the stock piece though, thanks!
 

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OK, just making sure...Couldn't remember if the 10v port did or did not.

BTW, the pic of the AAN was Ben N.'s engine. He bought it for his '93 90q, but found a 4.2L 32v A8q engine for similar money and sold the AAN. He's already running 5x112 hubs and AVUS wheels on his car, I think he is planning an A-C/O suspension for it, S4tt rear brakes, some type of front "big brakes", etc. Should be pretty sweet when done. And I think I got him persuaded to run an 034 Stage IIC instead of a used Electromotive Tec3. I know he mentioned that he had talked to Javad about it after I told him to check it out. If that is the case, score for Javad! Should be the first full blown stand-alone V8 application?
 

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- Using the 7A water outlet and 3B intake manifold, the end of the water outlet comes withing 3/16" of the #2 or 3 intake runner, meaning that you'd be lucky to fit a 1/4" walled hose over it, and if you did, it would be touching, not very ideal. So even if you wanted to go w/o the water manifold, IMO, you'd still need to address the fit here.
hmm, obviously hadn't run into that myself yet. Whether or not this matters in my case depends on my choice of intake manifold (still up in the air at this point).

Ya, if you're using a 7A, no problem, but the 7A manifold as is would cause other mounting issues, so its likely that you'll need to deal with it no matter what manifold you go with.

-Marc, your idea is good about using the fittings, I think I'll do something similar, though I'd like to still use the fittings (say 3/8" NPT) and build a slick "water rail" out of 1/2" or 5/8" alum tubing, and use tube nuts on the end to interface with the fittings on the head. There is the issue of tying it back into the water neck outlet.
maybe hijack one of the sensor ports to pipe a junction to the 'water rail'? I have to imagine space is tight in that area. a disconnectable deal at each 'runner' would be neat, but might not be practical to remove with anything else installed on the motor. Why is it that you don't want to go with the same 'unbolt' type deal with the stock manifold? Not that I have anything against using more AN parts in my engine bay :p

I just like the idea of using AN fittings, check out the pic, I think these will work nicely, 3 mounted to the head, then I build a simple rail with male AN bungs welded to it, the rail then ties into the stock wateroutlet with some cutting and welding, I relocate the outlet and wala, its basically the stock water manifold but attaching using AN parts instead of bolts. Basically get everything moutned and tack it in place to the head so it all fits.

Anyhoo, that's where I'm at with it. After being reminded how much effort Audi Sport put into the IMSA head, I think this is a good step towards heat management of a high output motor.
Agreed. It might not seem like it at times, but I imagine Audi does things like this for a reason, especially on the race cars. Keep me posted![/quote]

Ya, and its something you really notice in a HO 10v, they really heat soakk badly after about 10 min. on the track, I'd like to prevent that, and the 20vt's don't seem to have that same problem.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
On the manifold, my choices are either aftermarket like those 'wagner tuning' units that used to show up on ebay or something I'd have to fabricate myself. I really want to stick with the TB opening on the drivers side.

Interesting AN adapter, I hadn't seen one like that which goes from male NPT to female AN. that would probably work nicely! Certainly easier to install machining wise on the head. With those 10v nipples you'd have to deal with milling a groove for the o-ring.

What size pipe thread were you thinking, 3/8?
 

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Ya, eventually I'll build a custom intake, got with an electric PS Pump, and move the TB to the front, but for now I figure if I can make 4-500hp on the 3B IM I'll be happy, trying to focus my efforts on not too many things at once :wtf:

Ya, I've also been contemplating the idea of building a factory manifold style using o-rings, securing the o-ring is the only "tricky" part, no big deal if you have a lathe handy, which I don't (immediately).

We'll see, I've got a couple weeks to think about it.

Interesting how the factory manifold uses all the same size coolant passages [out of the head], to keep the flow through the head consistent is what I imagine.
 

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Ok, more thinking and mental debauchery over this (can you tell my motor isn't done so I don't have anything better to think about).

First off, here are some pics of what I'm dealing with:

http://www.80tq.com/albums/?mode=album& ... 2FWaterMan

You can see how close the 7A water outlet comes to the 3B IM, its dealable, but very tight. Anyway, I want to integrate the Water Manifold, BTDT.

I think I'm going to scratch my idea above, and go back to the AN fittings and hose idea, unless I can find a stock water manifold for under $150, which is unrealistic.

What I'm going to do is cut the end off the stock 7A outlet and extend it to the spot in the last picture, I think alum WeldEls will work nicely, 2 90 degree bends and a piece of straight between them. Then, I simply drill and tap 3 NPT fittings into the new water neck and some AN hose to connect it, the whole think shouldn't cost more than $75 to make and will be easy to service and remove. I'll drill and tap the unused bung on the 7A otulet for one of the turbo cooling lines and be done with it. Now I just need to drill the head for some NPT. :woowoo:

BTW - look at poor 80tq in the state of development, I'm going to pull the motor out soon and paint the engine compartment, make her look real nice again. :p
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
It's funny, I have a million things to do on my 4ktq project, yet I've got so many other side projects that I haven't had as much time to work on it as I'd like. I either have time or I have money, rarely both, more frequently neither :)

why scrap the metal manifold idea in favor of hose? Fabrication time? It would certainly be faster to go that route. Maybe even easier to dissasemble? If you go that route, you could just weld an AN bung on the water neck you are building and install a y-adapter on the back side to accept both the hoses from the 2 water ports you need to tap on that side, and just one on the other.

Probably wouldn't be too cluttered.

When I had the engine bay apart for the first turbo conversion I had the car trailered to a paint shop and shot with a fresh coat of paint. Came out looking great:

http://www.mswanson.com/images/?mod...tos&pic=engine_bay2.jpg&dispsize=640&start=60
 

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I guess after looking at things closer today, there just isn't a lot of room to deal with, figure the entire top of the 7a outlet is blocked by the 3B IM, and there are 2 bungs on the bottom of the outlet, that leaves hardly precious room on the sides, and since I'm extending the neck of the water outlet anyway, mise well move the aux. inlets up there.

I've got enough money and time right now, just no shop or engine back from my machine shop yet...son of A! :frustrated:
 

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hey javad, would it be possible to make aluminum flanges to weld aluminum tubing to extend to port out to where you could either put a nice big AN fitting on it or just use some common silicone hose?
you could have three indivual flanges that after you welded them up, have the machine shop plane them flat and the use factory gaskets (if there are any, are the ro-ringed) or just use that gray silicone you can get at kragens. that's my dad's favorite new stuff. it'll bondo to just about anything and we never have problems with it.

just suggestions......
 
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