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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
what the big picture here?

when should the mix be rich? when should it be lean? when should it be stoich (SP)?

i mean like under load? WOT, deceleration, cruising, idling etc.....

whats the principle of a well-tuned setup?

i am going to assume that the stageIIc is all i will ever need to make a perfectly running engine?

am i making sense?

thanks!
 

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SLAB said:
what the big picture here?

when should the mix be rich? when should it be lean? when should it be stoich (SP)?

i mean like under load? WOT, deceleration, cruising, idling etc.....

whats the principle of a well-tuned setup?
The basic criteria is that if you are not putting demands on the engine it is perfectly OK to run the engine lean for fuel economy purposes but when you are on boost you might want to run the mixture slightly rich especially on transition from light throttle to WOT in order to smooth out the transition and prevent detonation and high EGTs. More specifically:

at idle and light throttle (highway type) cruising you can run it as lean as it will go and still run smoothly.

on WOT and acceleration events you probably want to be running slightly rich. Running stoich on paper is the optimal A/F ratio, but typically in practice it is easier to tune things initially slightly rich for safety purposes and then scale back a bit until you find the sweet spot of performance versus fuel economy. A wide band o2 sensor really helps in tuning this.

i am going to assume that the stageIIc is all i will ever need to make a perfectly running engine?
yeah, other than the ancillaries like intercoolers and good ignition and fuel components (coils, injectors, etc). It is all about the tuning.. tune it right and you will have an engine that runs flawlessly. :)
 

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:stupid:

What Marc said is the general philosophy you want to follow, off power you can lean it out (I tend to try to tune to stoich off power, and let the closed loop mode lean it a smidge if I want), under boost you want to be on the rich side of stoich. How far rich you need to go is dependant on the level of boost, intake temps, and overall engine setup.

For tuning on the street I would really reccomend you have at least a good 4 wire O2 sensor (Javad has them), with a decent A/F ratio gauge right in front of you, an EGT gauge (I still need one of these), and a knock indicator of some sort. The Saab APC boxes are known to work, and I've seen some much smaller GM units meantioned that will do the job just as well. Just listening for knock (by ear) isn't a good way to tune if you are really pushing your engine. It can be knocking quite often before you'll ever hear it.

As for the abilities of the 034 system, if you are going whole hog with the IIc system that sucker will run anything under the sun for you, and make a cup of coffee at the press of a button.... if you so desire. :D
 

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Agreed with all the above, man, I'm so proud of you guys...sniff..ahem, anyhoo, yes, max power under WOT usually comes at aroud 12:1 a/f ratio, or about a .88-.9 O2, under cruising with any of the stage II systems I run even leaner than Stoich, like a 15:1-16:1 even, with sequential injection you can get away with it.

The IIc will do anything you want, and we are continually developing it, soon it will have knock sensing and Wide band input, including a self tuning feature, so stay tuned. Anything like boost control, water injection, Nitrous, idle control are all ready functioning in all the II products.

Fun stuff!
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
so tell me more about this coffee feature.....

so i could run EFI and ignition on my little 5HP honda lawnmower?

schweet:)

JShadzi: can i get a discount because im poor? i can mail you a 20V engine for an ECU :) seriously! manifolds, distributor with hall sender....throtle body......come on......PLEEEEEZ :D :p
 

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Yes you could run your mower off it with the right timing pickups.

Coffee feature?
Just put a switch to the aux input line, then have one of the programmable outputs turn on/off according to the switch to flip a relay and turn your 12v coffee pot on. Perhaps have it set to activate at high boost/RPM and have a coffee IV drip setup so you can react better at the higher speeds.... yea.. that'd work... :D
 

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Damn, I never thought of that. And all this time I've been trying to make HP when I should have been thinking about brewing the perfect potta joe! :D

On the NOS front I'm interested in doing that after the 20v upgrade. The direct port NOSzle setups from holley look pretty cool to me: http://www.holley.com/HiOctn/ProdLine/Products/NOS/NOSNS/NOSzle.html



500hp anyone? That'll go good with the auto-percolate feature :woowoo:
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
SLAB said:
JShadzi: can i get a discount because im poor? i can mail you a 20V engine for an ECU :) seriously! manifolds, distributor with hall sender....throtle body......come on......PLEEEEEZ :D :p
offer still stands!!!!!!!!!!! :woowoo:
 

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OH boy Marc, NOS, your addiction to HP is reaching dangerous levels ;) I think with your 20v stroker motor 500hp won't bee too difficult for you just on gas, NOS could probably get you to 6 or 700 quite easily assuming everthing holds up, a breather 20v stroker motor can make some serious power. 500 with the AAN is happening quite often these days.

Coffe..hmm...how bout a back massager, for those long days of tuning or after the races, we could use one of the GPO (general purpose outputs) to pulse one of those "Bass Shaker" units that simulate bass, eh?? =)
 

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JShadzi said:
OH boy Marc, NOS, your addiction to HP is reaching dangerous levels ;)
and my bank account reaching all time lows! :D

I think with your 20v stroker motor 500hp won't bee too difficult for you just on gas, NOS could probably get you to 6 or 700 quite easily assuming everthing holds up, a breather 20v stroker motor can make some serious power. 500 with the AAN is happening quite often these days.
yeah, but I envision lots of things breaking past 500hp. dollar for hp, NOS seems interesting to me. One idea that crossed my mind was to forgo the eurovan crank in favor of a straight ~2.3L setup with the 20v head then run direct port NOS. I've heard stories of the stroker setups throwing rods due to the extreme oversquare nature of the motor. Thoughts on this? Haven't given up yet on the stroker idea. The old addage holds true.. there is no replacement for displacement.

Coffe..hmm...how bout a back massager, for those long days of tuning or after the races, we could use one of the GPO (general purpose outputs) to pulse one of those "Bass Shaker" units that simulate bass, eh?? =)
that's too easy. Brewing a good cup of coffee seems like more of a chalenge. anybody can thump a bass unit, but tuning the right duty cycle for perfect percolation is another matter shens
 

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Hmm, I haven't ever heard of a blown stroker motor, not saying it doesn't happen, but just haven't ever heard of one, what have you heard specifically, 2nd hand, 3rd? I'd be interested to hear it.

If you build the motor right with tough components the rod angle shouldn't matter too much strength wise, most of the extreme stress a motor experiences is at TDC, BDC (at high rpm) and that point under power on the compression stroke if detonation happends, just before TDC.
 

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JShadzi said:
Hmm, I haven't ever heard of a blown stroker motor, not saying it doesn't happen, but just haven't ever heard of one, what have you heard specifically, 2nd hand, 3rd? I'd be interested to hear it.
3rd hand or perhaps worse. When the topic briefly came up on the q-list someone mentioned problems with the #5 rods (the way it was phrased the person seemed to indicate he had seen the same failure more than once). I never did press the person for specifics and worse yet can't find it in the archives..

If you build the motor right with tough components the rod angle shouldn't matter too much strength wise, most of the extreme stress a motor experiences is at TDC, BDC (at high rpm) and that point under power on the compression stroke if detonation happends, just before TDC.
true, just thinking out loud here:

as you mention, peak stress occurs under normal conditions at TDC and BDC (largest acceleration of the rod occurs here). Also as you mention, if detonation occurs you get an even higher peak stress occuring before TDC and worse yet the force will be greater against the walls of the cylinder. My fear is that in a normal 10v crank/rod/piston setup this can be absorbed without incident but with the larger rod angle of the stroker setup you wind up with an amplified force against the walls of the cylinders. Does that make sense?

Again, just thinking out loud. I have no BTDT on this and I'd just hate to have to carry around a dust pan and broom to pick up the pieces of an expensive stroker motor :oops:
 

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Sure, the rod angle will always be more in a stroker, but seeing as how bomber the stock setup is, I can't imagine all of a sudden you'd get this totally weak motor with a stroker setup. IME building and developing the Eurospec kits, using high quality rods, even the MC rods and good pistons, you're not going to have a lot of problems. I dont' think any of us have the engineering handy to actually determine for a fact that the stroker motor will be much more prone to failure, but my experinece with them, which is reasonable, tells me its not a problem

With that said, for major hp there is no reason to go to a stroker, any 20v 2.3 is capable of 500hp with under 30psi boost, if it was me I'd put the time and energy in the intake and exh system, and get that 2.3 making big power. I'm at about 400hp with a stock 10v long block (300whp), I think that would be closer to 500 with a 20v head, I plan on making an easy 350 wheel hp with my new 2.3 10v, that will keep me happy for a while.
 

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JShadzi said:
With that said, for major hp there is no reason to go to a stroker, any 20v 2.3 is capable of 500hp with under 30psi boost, if it was me I'd put the time and energy in the intake and exh system, and get that 2.3 making big power. I'm at about 400hp with a stock 10v long block (300whp), I think that would be closer to 500 with a 20v head, I plan on making an easy 350 wheel hp with my new 2.3 10v, that will keep me happy for a while.
what made you decide to build up the 2.3L 10v as your next motor as opposed to a 20v?

I am beginning to agree with regard to projected plans for my 20v setup. It seems as though if my target is roughly 400hp I should have no problem getting there with a 2.3L configuration.

So along those lines.... at 82.5mm bore, does the stock 20vt head hasket need to be clearanced at all? I can't remember what I measured it at.. I thought it was more like 82mm?

Anyway, has anybody ever done a group buy for custom pistons that will fit MC connecting rods for somewhere in the 8's CR with a 20v head on a 10v block? Seems like something more folks than just I would want to get in to....

What about Eurospec? Do they have any reasonably priced forged options?

As always, your knowledge on this stuff is mind boggling :wink:
 

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what made you decide to build up the 2.3L 10v as your next motor as opposed to a 20v?
Couple things, the main one being that I lost my shop where I did all my fabrication, now I'm very limited until I find another shop space, so the 10v is a matter of "bolt on/in", the 20v would require fabrication, etc. Plus, I kind of like the idea of proving how much power can be made with a "measly 10v" with the right engine management system =)

I am beginning to agree with regard to projected plans for my 20v setup. It seems as though if my target is roughly 400hp I should have no problem getting there with a 2.3L configuration.
totally agreed

So along those lines.... at 82.5mm bore, does the stock 20vt head hasket need to be clearanced at all? I can't remember what I measured it at.. I thought it was more like 82mm?
I'm working on that, I believe the AAN head gasket has like a 82.5 mm opening, but that's not enough clearance, so I'm planning on having an AAN HG machined out a little, I think at least .5-1mm of clearance is essential, I'm also looking into custom MLS applications.

Anyway, has anybody ever done a group buy for custom pistons that will fit MC connecting rods for somewhere in the 8's CR with a 20v head on a 10v block? Seems like something more folks than just I would want to get in to....
That's a good idea, I did that one for the 10v 2.3, but a 20v 2.3 would be cool

What about Eurospec? Do they have any reasonably priced forged options?
They stock JE pistons for about $850 a set or so, not cheap, but they have them.

As always, your knowledge on this stuff is mind boggling :wink
Oh buddy, I'm blushing =)
 

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JShadzi said:
Plus, I kind of like the idea of proving how much power can be made with a "measly 10v" with the right engine management system =)
I don't think anyone is calling the 10v measely anymore :)

I'm working on that, I believe the AAN head gasket has like a 82.5 mm opening, but that's not enough clearance, so I'm planning on having an AAN HG machined out a little, I think at least .5-1mm of clearance is essential, I'm also looking into custom MLS applications.
keep me posted.. it may not be cost effective to use an OEM gasket if you have to bore it out.. just the gasket alone goes for $100, plus whatever for machining costs. I do recall that it had a good chunk of metal around the bores that could be bored out without hurting the strength of the gasket too much. All that said, a nice custom copper gasket might make more sense?

That's a good idea, I did that one for the 10v 2.3, but a 20v 2.3 would be cool
yeah, sign me up :)

If I get to the point of needing pistons before you do I'll gladly explore the option of doing multiples for a discount. I imagine when you go 20v you'd use the 7A/MC block as a base right?

They stock JE pistons for about $850 a set or so, not cheap, but they have them.
including rings/pins/clips? If so that's about what the first set of pistons I built cost me. If not, that isn't a very good deal :)

Later
 

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<<I don't think anyone is calling the 10v measely anymore :)>>

Nice, well, it isn't, and man, with IIc this baby is making even more power, gonna hit the dyno next week, IIc is by far the hugest step forward 034efi has taken, more to come

<<keep me posted.. it may not be cost effective to use an OEM gasket if you have to bore it out.. just the gasket alone goes for $100, plus whatever for machining costs. I do recall that it had a good chunk of metal around the bores that could be bored out without hurting the strength of the gasket too much. All that said, a nice custom copper gasket might make more sense?>>

Ya, I'll be finding out more soon, I like copper gaskets but only with an o-ringed blocks.

<<If I get to the point of needing pistons before you do I'll gladly explore the option of doing multiples for a discount. I imagine when you go 20v you'd use the 7A/MC block as a base right?>>

Ya, not sure when I'll need some, but someone like Wiesco might be willing to work with you on a few sets, I got the last buy at about $550 with rings, etc.

<<including rings/pins/clips? If so that's about what the first set of pistons I built cost me. If not, that isn't a very good deal :)>>

No, that should be complete for that price.
 

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JShadzi said:
Ya, I'll be finding out more soon, I like copper gaskets but only with an o-ringed blocks.[
hmm, well can a block be o-ringed?

Ya, not sure when I'll need some, but someone like Wiesco might be willing to work with you on a few sets, I got the last buy at about $550 with rings, etc.
smokin'. I'd jump if I could get them for that.

Another side question now that we've jumped all over the map on this topic... would you opt for standard rings or Total Seal rings? I've got total seal's in my built 10vt block and compression was always solid on that motor with very little oil consumption (other than my turbo meltdown).. on the other hand I've heard other people who have had problems with them. Thoughts?

Later
 
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