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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
i've had a few people ask me about the aluminum flywheels for the PT 3.6 v8. so i'm planning on running another GB for them. who's interested?
weight is 9lbs. replaceable wear surface, all the good stuff. and compatible with any MC2,7A disc and pressure plate. these flywheels are a bolt in proposition for any 016 equipped car if you are doing a conversion or just putting it in your stock v8. if you are doing a conversion in a car without the 016, you will need a pilot bearing extension to accomodate the shorter input shaft.
price will be $450 plus s/h.
 

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Derrick what the hell is this? I put myself at CONSIDERABLE risk to pony up for the last group buy and I don't appreciate being undercut after you and Findanza strong-armed me into the last deal.

This is really inexcusable on your part and you know it. That's why I'm posting this on a public forum.
 

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Since this is a public post Ben, I was just wondering if we could get details on the strong-arming, and exactly what happened?

Not trying to light a fire here, but if you accuse someone of something publicly I think the rest of us would like to hear the full story, from both sides.

'Course how about we all simmer till after the holiday season, it's not like this is all going to go down tomorrow or something.

Merry x-mas everyone!
 

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newt said:
Since this is a public post Ben, I was just wondering if we could get details on the strong-arming, and exactly what happened?
I really don't want to have a war here, but since you ask....

Derricks dad's company convinced Fidanza to NOT sell me the flywheels directly. Instead I had to go through Derricks dad. The flywheels ended up costing me MORE than the $450 Derrick is posting in his group buy.

I went to a lot of risk to get the minimum 10 buyers and pony up the money for those that weren't sold.

I suplied a brand new OEM flywheel for Fidanza to copy (had to send it to Derricks dad)

I designed a bushing to adapt the flywheel to 01A transmissions

So basically, Derrick's dad used me to get the initial run of 10 flywheels made and now he is undercutting me when I still have some left and have not recouped my initial cost.

That is just bad business. Since Derrick did not start his own company with only $800 in the bank and build it up to the point where he could pull off a deal like this and not go belly up, maybe he doesn't appreciate just how rotten this move is.

It's pretty rotten.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
ben, free enterprise is free enterprise. i believe this works the same way in that you undercut richard hoffman with the shifters and then proceed to tell everyone that his products are crap.....not true in the least. i never badmouthed you, and you don't have to charge between $575 and $675(depending on what day it is) for the flywheels. you have a parts warehouse with over a million parts in stock right, so what a couple of flywheels??

you never got strong armed. you have a poor reputation with a lot of people that i've been finding out for a while now. the price you got your flywheels at was an fair and agreed upon price, a price of which you could not match elsewhere. fidanza will not deal with you based on the way you badgered them nearly everyday (or every other day) the entire time the v8 deal was being dealt with. and on top of that you talked crap about fidanza being slow, for which they were not. you should know how the custom order market goes.

so, since i have had people ask me about the flywheels, i will give them flywheels. not send them to you so you can make $225 over and above my very fair price.

Good day to you :)
 
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Your Dad told me personally to charge $600 for the flywheels. I have worked very hard to build a good reputation and you stabbed me in the back plain and simple.

The least you can do is wait for me to recoup the costs I incured developing YOUR flywheel for you.

Richard's shifter is a whole other matter. I started from scratch with the DIY version and didn't even know about Richard's version becuase I was not on the 20v list.

I made substantial changes to the DIY part and I beleive mine is better. I NEVER badmouthed Richard's kit - I was talking about the DIY part and he took it the wrong way. He then badmouthed my product in "retaliation" so now I am very clear about why my product is better and different from his.

You have some nerve saying that I have a "bad reputation" when you have no idea how many happy customers I have. This deal with fidanza was utter crap from the start and you know it. What you did to me was collude with fidanza to make a profit from ME and my RISK. Now you have the nerve to accuse me - a legitimate business - of "trying to make a profit"

Since you live with your parents and never had to worry about paying rent, or having a job or take anything seriously in your life, I can see how you have a skewed view of this deal. The same goes for Richard.

I gave up a career as freeking fighter pilot for god's sake, so I could follow my passion and build cars for a living instead of killing people.

I started this company with NOTHING and when small people like you come along talking crap in the internet, it makes me very sad for mankind in general.

You need to grow up. You need to take a good hard look at how I WAS SCREWED on this deal. You need to admit that you are wrong. And you need to move on.

If I can make it through college, boot camp and Air Force officer training to win a pilot's slot, I can sure as hell put up with people like you, Richard and Emre trying to spread lies and bring me down.

If you ever accomplish ANYTHING worthwhile in life through your own hard work, maybe you will come to appreciate how it feels to have some small person come along and try to sabbotage you on the internet, where people can get away with pretty much anything they damn well please.

No matter what you do, I'll always be the better man. You can undercut me all you want and talk trash till the cows come home. In the end you'll never amount to anything on your own.

I'm through with this subject. Do what you like.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
kung_fu_4.2 said:
newt said:
Since this is a public post Ben, I was just wondering if we could get details on the strong-arming, and exactly what happened?
I really don't want to have a war here, but since you ask....

Derricks dad's company convinced Fidanza to NOT sell me the flywheels directly. Instead I had to go through Derricks dad. The flywheels ended up costing me MORE than the $450 Derrick is posting in his group buy.

I went to a lot of risk to get the minimum 10 buyers and pony up the money for those that weren't sold.

I suplied a brand new OEM flywheel for Fidanza to copy (had to send it to Derricks dad)

I designed a bushing to adapt the flywheel to 01A transmissions

So basically, Derrick's dad used me to get the initial run of 10 flywheels made and now he is undercutting me when I still have some left and have not recouped my initial cost.

That is just bad business. Since Derrick did not start his own company with only $800 in the bank and build it up to the point where he could pull off a deal like this and not go belly up, maybe he doesn't appreciate just how rotten this move is.

It's pretty rotten.
Been, i do believe that my dad told you a while back before anything was comitted that you could have gone on your own. you didn't get shafted at all. with shipping, your flywheels came out to $455ea. that's half the price of the other company making them(and i won't say anything bad about them because they've done nothing to me)

originally,been you were all buddy buddy to get an in with fidanza to get you a flywheel for your project....way back in the beginning of the summer. you came begging that i would help you out, and you went and collected people at what you call a "risk" to your business. how does a big business like yours barely teeder on a couple of flywheels?? i don't whine to anyone about having to collect buyers for the 5cyl flywheels? or the fact that i originally paid for the entire first 5cyl GB out of my own pocket!! you never went to any "risk" to get people to buy the flywheels or even step out to buy a couple extras by yourself. i even bought an extra v8 flywheel out of my own pocket (again) to get this deal through, and you were fine and cool about that.

also, where are those bushings you designed? could we see an actual pic of the piece within the day to prove you actually have had the pieces made? i never stole anything about the bushings, if anyone was going to ask, i was just gonna send them to you, but not now. i also sent anyone interested in flywheels to you originally.

and we didn't use you. i would have much rather asked alankramer and given him the same one free flywheel in trade for his actually new flywheel that he could have traded for an alu. one for the original copying.

congratulations on starting your own business. i applaud you for your dedication and hard work. it's the same for about everyone who starts their own busness. i'm sure plenty of people on this forum understand that. but for you to complain that three flywheels are going to make you go belly up.....well, that doesn't fit the business profile you present on your website and on this forum.

you did not develope ANY flywheel like you stated. you simply passed the one on that you got, rust and all.

i never said anything bad about you EVER, unlike what you've tried to say about me. all the belittling talk you say about me living at home does nothing but prove your shallowness. that has nothing to do with anything here.....period. i really wish you would show my the nasty posts i've put up about you personally and your business....wherever the cows may be. i never said anything deragatory about you or what you will or will not become based on your business dealings with others.

people came to me about the flywheels and i told them a price. fair and square. you sell them for what you want, i'll sell them for what i want. i've been up front and fair with everyone. sabbatoge' my butt....sheesh
 

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This is getting kind of ugly, but I thought I'd add my own input.

Ben, since our original argument about the B3/B4 short shifter, I've been really fair about everything. I get a lot of emails like "what do you think of the quattrospeed/ubernugen short shifter". I tell people the product is basically the same, yours is cheaper, mine comes with an unconditional one year warranty.

Ben, you DID bad mouth my kit on several occasions, telling people that it was junk and would fall apart, not to trust anything I sell, and did so once during an S2forum group buy when I had 55 people signed up. Luckily, S2Forum members are very loyal and I didn't lose much of that order.

How's Emre doing these days? I haven't talked to him in 8 months. So go blow this theory straight out your ass. There's no conspiracy to bring you down.

Also Ben, I don't live with my parents. I moved out when I was 17 (6 years ago, for the record), and I too started a company with nothing. Just like you, I was understandably pissed when someone came along and cut my sales volume by 2/3 by slandering my products.

Here's my take on what little I know of this flywheel deal. Ben: if you thought the deal was crap from the start, why did you do it? When you have something made like this and want to be the exclusive distributor for it, you discuss this with the manufacturer or "project coordinator" (Derek). It isn't something that is assumed! I've learned that business is about relationships, and if you value them, you will take steps to protect them. Also, apparently you've never had anything machined before. The first run is ALWAYS more expensive.

What I see is a company that distributes someone else's product. The manufacturer has a sale, and you accuse them of stealing your business. If anything, you should be buying into this group buy! After the success of the last one, getting a lower price on new stock can only help you! You can cut your price and maintain the same margin - and thats good for business, guaranteeing more sales volume.

As for who said what, who did what, I don't really care. I don't see how someone can "strong-arm" you into making this deal. From what I understand, your "development work" involved sending a flywheel to fidanza and letting them copy it. I heard that you got a free aluminum flywheel just for sending them one to copy. So lets see...ship a boat anchor of a FW, get a free aluminum flywheel for yourself. I thought you went to engineering school? Why didn't you just do the design yourself for free? Fidanza is making a bundle on these flywheels too, just so you know. I offered to help back in the day, and I would have been able to beat the price on machining (although I wouldn't know where to get the ring gears)

Anyway, I'm yammering, and now I'm done. Ben, quit whining about it. I believe you told me once "A little friendly competition never hurt"
 

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kung_fu_4.2 said:
appreciate being undercut after you and Findanza strong-armed me into the last deal.
Aahahaha.
Ben thinks to himself "Boy this is a bad deal, but I'm siging the cheque anyway, what a bunch of strong-arm robbers. Off to the post office I go!"
Nobody can force a person to buy something ('cept for all those highways built with our tax money :wink: )
 

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kung_fu_4.2 said:
This is really inexcusable on your part and you know it. That's why I'm posting this on a public forum.
Ben this really is rediculous. ANY Fidanza dealer can make an order for a PT V8 flywheel. There are tons of Fidanza dealers, any one of them can buy 5 flywheels for whatever the going rate is. If you can't compete with other Fidanza retailers, maybe you should find a different job or figure out a way to be competitive (innovation helps here).

And Ben, if you are the engineer you claim to be,

kung_fu_4.2 said:
If I can make it through college...... I can sure as hell put up with people like you, Richard and Emre trying to spread lies and bring me down.
why don't you just whip up a CAD drawing and have nearly any machine shop make them for you. I got a quote from E-Machineshop.com, and the price for ONE flywheel and ONE friction plate (plus a VAG ring gear) would be about 350 bucks and a couple weeks.

Man engineering students these days....
 

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I don't buy the part about him going all the way through OCS and then giving up a pilot slot to start a company. Half my friends at school are AFROTC, nobody gives up pilot slots, ever. You'd just have to be crazy, or suddenly decide you hated flying, which is also impossible.

I've known Derek since I was 13, and he's just about the most honest, moral guy I've ever known. The idea of him "strong arming" somebody in a deal and screwing them over like some kind of real estate tycoon is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. Billzcat1 pretty much hit the nail on the head: it's probably a miscommunication, and you should buy in and lower your bottom line if you're so concerned about getting undercut.

So, pretty much there's only one way we can settle this:

The CIRCLE OF DEATH!!!!!!
(and I just swept the circle of death too)
 

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oh oh OMG, i just downloaded the startrek fight scene music tooo... dan ** daa daa daa daa dad dada dat.......

muahahha this is gonna be McFun w Cheese!!! :D
 

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I'll chime in quickly with a few of my thoughts since I've been dealing with stuff like this for years:

1 - First off, this whole discussion should have been conducted privately between Ben and Derek - by taking it directly public, any chance of an amicable agreement was destroyed. (and you get to sit through emails like this analyzing your very public actions :p )

2 - Ben is acting as a retailer, Derek is acting as a supplier or wholesaler. Agreements should have been made, initially, before any orders were placed, on how future sales of product would be conducted to ensure the "manufacturer" wouldn't undercut the "retailer". This is a natural conflict that arises between suppliers and retailers, unless its thoroughly addressed contractually, this scenario is bound to happen.

3 - At this point, there is nothing to stop Derek from going directly to the "consumer", or from Ben to find another supplier. Since no guidelines were formed for the relationship, "anything goes" is about the only appropriate way to conduct this relationship.

4 - "Technically speaking", if a retailer wanted to protect themselves from being undercut by their own supplier, they would form a relationship, directly, with the manufacturer of the product. One of the most important, proprietary parts of any business are the supply chain relationships that it forms - its what separates one retailer from the next, or successful ones from failures. Sourcing parts through a private individual, with no interest in becoming or maintaining itself as a wholesaler to retailers, isn't a smart business decision, and shouldn't be relied on to be a profitable "business initiative".

Not trying to take sides, from the outside this whole thing is crystal clear and so easily could have been prevented.

The best way to salvage this is to learn some lessons and move on.

My $.02
 
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