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MikkiJayne said:
V8QinNJ said:
Kind of late to the conversation, but why not use a 1.9 TDI engine and power adders (bigger turbo, injectors & chip) Can easily make big HP and Torque numbers, is a very small power plant and trans choices are large..
:? Even I wouldn't suggest a 1.9 TDI to someone who was considering a W12 :p It'll 'easily' make 200hp / 300lb-ft but beyond that it gets pretty expensive. Not sure anyone has managed 440hp from one!

Now a V8 TDI would be a different kettle of fish entirely, but thats probably a whole other thread :wink:
I second all the above.

It's like suggesting a 1,8T Audi A4 B6 to someone who's considering a Bugatti Veyron. It's a non-starter. :?

People buy diesel-engined cars for their miserly fuel consumption. A 1,9 TDI tuned from 130/150 hp to 200 and beyond, with a fatter snail and bigger injectors will be thirsty. Couple that to the higher initial investment (purchase price) and the higher cost of derv, then suddenly the sensible diesel becomes impractical.
 

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To each his (or her) own.. I have serveral very good friends with a MKIV Golf's (1.9PD) that is easily 200HP but +300Lb/Ft torque as their daily drivers get 50+MPG.. with lots more things that could be done for penny's on the dollar compared to the investment of a W12 +trans +100's of hours of fab work not to mention the 100's of hours of wiring - Just sayin.
 

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V8QinNJ said:
To each his (or her) own.. I have serveral very good friends with a MKIV Golf's (1.9PD) that is easily 200HP but +300Lb/Ft torque as their daily drivers get 50+MPG.. with lots more things that could be done for penny's on the dollar compared to the investment of a W12 +trans +100's of hours of fab work not to mention the 100's of hours of wiring - Just sayin.
I agree the mpg of a tuned 1,9 TDI will be higher than that of a stock 6,0 W12. But one thing's for sure - the OP must know he can't expect brilliant gas mileage out of a 6,0 engine. So I doubt mpg is really an issue here.

100's of hours of fabrication work to get a W12 into a VW Bug? That's part of the fun, a unique ride isn't simply a bolt-together job, otherwise everyone would be doing it. :)

Personally, the 1,9 PD option doesn't do it for me. I also run a 2008 BMW 118D (2,0 turbo diesel). It's okay-ish.But not comparable to a big gas engine. The enjoyment element comes into things, in most cases above mpg. The flat monotone of a 4 banger diesel can never match the soundtrack of a highly-tuned I5/V6/V8/V10/W12 etc. It just doesn't.

Lastly, if gas mileage was the greatest deciding factor, most of us here would not be tuning our gas engines to produce big power, and guzzling more gas. We'd be leaving them stock, and probably be running Volkswagen Polo I3 TDI or similar. :D
 

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You can always go with a v10 tdi, but thats a rather heavy engine.
you could also get good power with larger snails and some tuning out of the 4l and 4.2l tdi engine, but again a cast v8 block weighs a lot

btw, why restrict yourself to vw/ audi engines, you can always go crazy and put a supercharged v8 form a benz, or their tt v12
 

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Discussion Starter · #25 ·
Thanks for all the replies.

I've done TDI installs in other vehicles. The Oval will be staying with petrol power.

I'm a Vag fan and know the technology that they use and how to maintain it.

The reason for my interest in the W12 is that it fits the space I have in the middle of the bug.

Short, wide, over 400hp out of the box and normally aspirated.

Mpg is not in my mind for this project. Sound, individuality and power are.

I'll be breaking an S8 2001 soon so will have a very good idea as to just much work goes into using the stock wiring from a similar aged D2. I may even run the dash in the project, I haven't decided yet.

Both projects will run on stock ECUs so I can plug in etc. I have no problem with running all the sensors etc, why remove a system that Audi spent hundreds of thousands developing?

MG
 

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Discussion Starter · #27 ·
I haven't tried.

I see no point in spending out on a new fuel pump that I'm not going to able to use in the project.

I'll be running an aftermarket pump in the van so may use that just to move the car around if need be.

MG
 

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Nollywood said:
AudiA4_20T said:
Almost positive you can use the SteveKen adapter kit for the trans. The wiring shouldn't be tough, the technology isn't that advanced for an 04ish car. Just use the W12 cluster and wire it up correctly.
The technology IS very advanced, even on a 2001 D2 6,0 A8L. The cluster's just a minute part of the jigsaw. To run the W12 cluster, you'll need to have pretty much the whole wiring, or at least the main (central) one, which is the dash harness.

I've rewired a D2 6,0 W12 that had suffered a minor dash fire. It took close to 4 weeks to get it up and running, making a new harness. Bear in mind, this car actually came with a 6,0 W12, yet it was a pig to rewire, and fought back every step of the way. After she ran, it took me a further week to eliminate bugs that had the cluster glowing like a Christmas tree.

It's not an easy job.
So how many wires go to the motor? Can't be more than like 50. Most of them are like "oil low light" or coolant temp. The only real input that the motor sees is the throttle and power
 

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AudiA4_20T said:
Nollywood said:
AudiA4_20T said:
So how many wires go to the motor? Can't be more than like 50. Most of them are like "oil low light" or coolant temp. The only real input that the motor sees is the throttle and power
If only it was that straight forward, but it's not.
 

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Nollywood said:
AudiA4_20T said:
Nollywood said:
AudiA4_20T said:
So how many wires go to the motor? Can't be more than like 50. Most of them are like "oil low light" or coolant temp. The only real input that the motor sees is the throttle and power
If only it was that straight forward, but it's not.
So what other inputs does the motor see? How many wires go through the harness plugs?
 

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AudiA4_20T said:
So what other inputs does the motor see? How many wires go through the harness plugs?
Bud, I'd have to be an anorak to remember how many wires go through the harness plug. I honestly can't remember, I do a job, then put my mind back on family issues. Without looking at a D2 6,0 W12, or at least the wiring schematic, I couldn't answer your question.
 

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Discussion Starter · #33 ·
Well I've taken the plunge and purchased a 2004 VW Phaeton W12 with a blown transmission.

It's only done 59k miles but the ZF5hp24 (yes it's the same as the S8 one I rebuilt) has had enough.

Unlike the S8, I can't remove the transmission without pulling the motor and once it's out, I don't really feel like putting it back in. It still drives, just in 5th gear but the engine has enough power to set off like that!

I'll start a new project thread when I take the car to pieces.

A few questions...

Has anyone tried bolting up a B7 RS4 gearbox to a W12?

Will an 034 motorsport flex plate insert for the ABZ fit the W12?

Thanks
 

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Mickey, the W12 crank shares the same 10-bolt fitment to flexiplate with the original Audi V8, D2 32V, VR6 and RS6. All have the same PCD. However, the W12 flexiplate takes a larger torque converter than an ABZ, so I very much doubt if the 034 insert will fit.

Volkswagen Touareg 3,2 VR6 6-speed manual has a 10-bolt crank...the flywheel is a direct bolt-on affair to the 6,0 V12...
 

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Discussion Starter · #35 ·
How about the timing rings on the flex plate? I've not seen one from a W12 yet. Do they run a pin or a 60-2 etc?
I've been looking at many Audi gearboxes and have yet to find anything else that uses the same bolt pattern as the W12... I remember hearing that one of the W12 Bentley's was available as a manual but looking it up, everything is auto.
MG
 

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Discussion Starter · #36 ·
I've yet to start pulling the Phaeton apart but it's looking increasingly like it's got Can-Bus and therefore a big headache to get running outside of the vehicle. Not impossible but not fun either!

Also... following up on the bolt up pattern of the W12. I think that that may depend on the year of the W12 engine.

Looking at the W12 from a D2 A8, a Phaeton W12 illustration from the self study guide and the Audi V10...



The Audi V10 and Phaeton W12 look to be similar but the D2 A8 W12 looks very different.

I'll continue to research.

MG
 

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Discussion Starter · #38 ·
This has already crossed my mind. I need to look into what differences there are between the A8 W12 and the Phaeton W12 engines.

I know that the intake manifold is different but the cams, sensors, comp ratio etc could also be different and give me huge headaches with running problems.

Unfortunately this is one engine where an aftermarket ECU won't work due to the complicated nature of variable cams on both intake and exhaust etc.

MG
 

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I bet you could do it with two aftermarket ECUs though ;) (just like the RS4)

One to control fuel and ignition and one to control the cams - feed them both the same inputs but set them up and map them to do different things!

Or, one to do fuel and inlet cams and one to do ignition and exhaust cams, that way you can probably run full sequential, or at least batch fire and wasted spark :D
 
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