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W12 information for conversion.

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 Post subject: W12 information for conversion.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 1:59 am 
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Hi all, I'm looking using a W12 engine in my next project but finding out technical information on these engines isn't easy!

I know that these are several different versions with the first variation coming out in the Audi A8 D2. As this is the most likely for the conversion due to the rest getting closer to vehicles from 2006 onwards and may be involving can-bus... I'll probably be concentrating on this engine.

I've heard of weaknesses of the crank but don't which engines in particular this affects.

What is the engine to transmission bolt up pattern? The majority of W12s seem to come as autos so I'll be needing a flywheel etc which will work with it and a transmission. I know that the W12 is basically two VR6 engines together but does that mean that they use the VR6 bolt up pattern?

I have an 01E 6 speed kicking around...

Cheers.

MG

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Last edited by Mickey on Tue Jan 11, 2011 4:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: W12 information for conversion.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 6:51 am 
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I've found this photo but can't identify the transmission yet... Anyone?

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 Post subject: Re: W12 information for conversion.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 6:54 am 
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Looks like Boxster 01E.

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 Post subject: Re: W12 information for conversion.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 7:26 am 
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I cant confirm the tranny, but the body looks like a Type 147 Fridolin . .there was a great build thread on this link http://www.volksforum.com with a W-12 and other great tidbits..

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Last edited by audibing on Tue Jan 11, 2011 8:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: W12 information for conversion.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 7:43 am 
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That box appears to be an 0A2 from a FWD diesel 2.7 or 3.0. (very similar to a Boxster S box).

The First generation of W12's had crankshaft issues, something like 70-80% of the crankshafts broke between the #7 and #8 rod journals. I'd stay away from those.

I believe the W12 to have the same bolt pattern as the V10, RS6, and Rs4 V8 engines meaning it won't bolt to an 01E, and judging by the picture above it won't bolt up to the 0A2 either. (note an B7 RS4 gearbox may work).

The W12 was also installed in the Bentley continental and continental GT, but with a pair of turbos.

the type 147 project is here... http://www.volksworld.com/volksforumfrid

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 Post subject: Re: W12 information for conversion.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 2:42 pm 
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I know it's not much use to you as of yet but there is an engine on German eBay at the min.

http://cgi.ebay.de/Motor-Audi-A8-6-0-W12-450PS-331kW-BHT-Teile-/180608492613?pt=Autoteile_Zubeh%C3%B6r&hash=item2a0d1ae445


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 Post subject: Re: W12 information for conversion.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 4:28 pm 
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Thanks for the info so far.

I have been watching W12 engines come up for sale on ebay.de for the last 6 months and the prices vary from as little as 2K Euro to 6K Euro with varying amount of parts missing or added etc.

Obviously fitting a W12 motor to something else means I need everything from the car and I don't know at present what's involved in getting an Auto engine to run without the transmission... I guess I could run it with the loom, ECU and minimal parts from the trans etc.

This is some info I've managed to put together so far on the W12 engine.

Audi A8 W12 6.0 (AZC)
From 03/01-09/02
444 Bhp @ 6,000rpm
428 Ft lbs @ 4,700rpm
Notes: Only 750 Produced in the D2 A8.

Audi A8 W12 6.0 (BHT)
From 02/04-
450 Bhp @ 6.000rpm
428 Ft lbs @ 4,000-4,700rpm

VW Phaeton W12 6.0 (BAN)
From 05/02-
444 Bhp @ 6,000rpm
413 Ft lbs @ 3.250rpm

VW Touareg W12 6.0 (BJN)
From 08/04-
444 Bhp @ 6,000rpm
443 Ft lbs @ 3,300rpm


If the early engines had problems then I'll avoid them, thanks for the warning. The later I go, the more complications but I can live without having to replace the crankshaft on a W12!! Do you know which engine code the problems were with?

I'll have a look into B7 RS4 transmissions and try to get some more photos of the flywheel end of the W12 as that's going to give me the most info.

MG

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 Post subject: Re: W12 information for conversion.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 6:06 pm 
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I looked seriously into this conversion last year. There was a Phaeton W12 that came up for sale at a VW dealer. It was 100% brand new, and included all 4 downpipes with cat converters, 8 O2 sensors, both electronic throttle bodies, A/C compressor, alternator, P/S pump, coil packs, wiring harnesses, factory warranty, you name it. They were pretty anxious to sell it, and probably would have let it go for less than $5K. I was even looking to sell all of the stuff I didn't need (O2 sensors, cats, throttle bodies, etc.) and make some of that money back. Anyway, after doing a lot of research, I determined that it probably wasn't something I could pull off. For me, the deciding factor was the lack of a suitable manual transmission.

I was hoping that the W8 transmissions would bolt up, but they're typical 01Es, and wouldn't be a direct fit. Here is a pic I photo-shopped of how a 016 might bolt up to the engine:
Image

As you can see, not enough of the bolt holes line up. There are probably other ways to make it fit, including some factory spacers that might work, but I couldn't see spending $5K on a motor, and not know FOR SURE whether or not it would work.

Something else I considered was light turbocharging. It looks like the typical VR6 turbo manifolds that you find on eBay would have worked for at least once cylinder bank. I think it would have worked for the other cylinder bank too with a little bit of work. I was thinking somewhere in the neighborhood of 6 PSI, non-intercooled would be good for 550-600 HP, without the extra trouble of intercooling.

I also think that stand-alone engine management would have worked with a single ECU. Since the crank is a split pin variety, I think the engine could have been run like a single VR6. You would just have to fire both injectors and both spark plugs on the opposing banks at the same time. It's not very elegant, but it's the same concept used on a lot of production cars in the '90s.

I still have a few more pictures/ideas if you need them. Just let me know.


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 Post subject: Re: W12 information for conversion.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 9:48 pm 
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To be honest I'd roll with a V10... Much simpler engine, lighter, smaller, and just more bad ass, it has FSI and if you got the wallet you can get the RS6 version with nearly 600hp.. There is one on ebay for $19,000.

The N/A version produce as much power as a W12 with 2 less cylinders and without all the retarded crap that comes with a W engine.

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 Post subject: Re: W12 information for conversion.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 9:59 pm 
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scottmandu wrote:
To be honest I'd roll with a V10... Much simpler engine, lighter, smaller, and just more bad ass, it has FSI and if you got the wallet you can get the RS6 version with nearly 600hp.. There is one on ebay for $19,000.

The N/A version produce as much power as a W12 with 2 less cylinders and without all the retarded crap that comes with a W engine.



:stupid:

Only thing better than an I5 is a V10 in my book :D

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 Post subject: Re: W12 information for conversion.
PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 12:52 pm 
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Thanks for the detailed replies.

Looking at the photo, I can see fitting a manual transmission (along with clutch and flywheel) being one of the biggest headaches with the W12.

Re engine management, I'd stick with the OE setup as I have an idea of what's needed and have managed to get many other VAG engines up and running in other vehicles. I don't have the knowhow to map an aftermarket system.

A V10 sounds like a great idea but there isn't enough room in the car...

Image

I had an ABZ kicking around which I almost fitted to it (and had running on the floor) but I'm wanting more hp and the W12 does it for me...

MG

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 Post subject: Re: W12 information for conversion.
PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 1:16 pm 
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Mickey wrote:
Thanks for the detailed replies.

Looking at the photo, I can see fitting a manual transmission (along with clutch and flywheel) being one of the biggest headaches with the W12.

Re engine management, I'd stick with the OE setup as I have an idea of what's needed and have managed to get many other VAG engines up and running in other vehicles. I don't have the knowhow to map an aftermarket system.

A V10 sounds like a great idea but there isn't enough room in the car...

Image

I had an ABZ kicking around which I almost fitted to it (and had running on the floor) but I'm wanting more hp and the W12 does it for me...

MG


ABZ + supercharger or Twin turbo..

IIRC the V10 is an inch longer than the Cam belt V8 engines, and the W8 is slightly smaller in length but is quite a bit wider than both the V10 and V8.

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 Post subject: Re: W12 information for conversion.
PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 1:47 pm 
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Mickey wrote:
Thanks for the detailed replies.

Looking at the photo, I can see fitting a manual transmission (along with clutch and flywheel) being one of the biggest headaches with the W12.

Re engine management, I'd stick with the OE setup as I have an idea of what's needed and have managed to get many other VAG engines up and running in other vehicles. I don't have the knowhow to map an aftermarket system.

A V10 sounds like a great idea but there isn't enough room in the car...

I had an ABZ kicking around which I almost fitted to it (and had running on the floor) but I'm wanting more hp and the W12 does it for me...

MG


I work on a similar project with audi ABZ engine and if the V10 are only one inch longer you have room to fitting in the vw.

this is my project: https://www.motorgeek.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=12942

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 Post subject: Re: W12 information for conversion.
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2012 5:25 am 
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Just following on from this.

I'm still looking at the W12 as a possible engine for the project but the V10 is now also a possibility IF it will fit.

Does anyone have some measurements of the engine?

There's not that much room in the back of a Bug!

MG

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 Post subject: Re: W12 information for conversion.
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 1:45 pm 
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Is the w12 not FSI? the newest 6.3l version is.
Are you planning on running stand alone, or wiring the factory computers in? A post above mentioned the amount of sensors, and I downloaded that self study pdf on the engine. Could you bypass some of the sensors if you were running a stand alone, or 2, one for each bank

Looking forward to this, if you actually go through with it.

side question, has anyone tried calling the phaeton owners hotline, would they speak to you if you are not a phaeton or w12 owner?


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 Post subject: W12 information for conversion.
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 9:48 pm 
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Almost positive you can use the SteveKen adapter kit for the trans. The wiring shouldn't be tough, the technology isn't that advanced for an 04ish car. Just use the W12 cluster and wire it up correctly.

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 Post subject: Re: W12 information for conversion.
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 6:00 am 
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AudiA4_20T wrote:
Almost positive you can use the SteveKen adapter kit for the trans. The wiring shouldn't be tough, the technology isn't that advanced for an 04ish car. Just use the W12 cluster and wire it up correctly.


The technology IS very advanced, even on a 2001 D2 6,0 A8L. The cluster's just a minute part of the jigsaw. To run the W12 cluster, you'll need to have pretty much the whole wiring, or at least the main (central) one, which is the dash harness.

I've rewired a D2 6,0 W12 that had suffered a minor dash fire. It took close to 4 weeks to get it up and running, making a new harness. Bear in mind, this car actually came with a 6,0 W12, yet it was a pig to rewire, and fought back every step of the way. After she ran, it took me a further week to eliminate bugs that had the cluster glowing like a Christmas tree.

It's not an easy job.

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 Post subject: Re: W12 information for conversion.
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 6:19 am 
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Kind of late to the conversation, but why not use a 1.9 TDI engine and power adders (bigger turbo, injectors & chip) Can easily make big HP and Torque numbers, is a very small power plant and trans choices are large..

Kind of like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vLOcva5 ... re=related

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 Post subject: Re: W12 information for conversion.
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 6:27 am 
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V8QinNJ wrote:
Kind of late to the conversation, but why not use a 1.9 TDI engine and power adders (bigger turbo, injectors & chip) Can easily make big HP and Torque numbers, is a very small power plant and trans choices are large..

Kind of like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vLOcva5 ... re=related" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


1) Limited rev range.
2) Sound - very flat, lacks "soul."
3) Power delivery.
4) Cost. Diesel's a lot more expensive in the UK than gasoline.
5) Lots of black smoke under full-bore throttle, more so once modified with bigger turbo and injector nozzles.

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 Post subject: Re: W12 information for conversion.
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 10:11 am 
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V8QinNJ wrote:
Kind of late to the conversation, but why not use a 1.9 TDI engine and power adders (bigger turbo, injectors & chip) Can easily make big HP and Torque numbers, is a very small power plant and trans choices are large..


:? Even I wouldn't suggest a 1.9 TDI to someone who was considering a W12 :P It'll 'easily' make 200hp / 300lb-ft but beyond that it gets pretty expensive. Not sure anyone has managed 440hp from one!

Now a V8 TDI would be a different kettle of fish entirely, but thats probably a whole other thread :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: W12 information for conversion.
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 10:41 am 
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MikkiJayne wrote:
V8QinNJ wrote:
Kind of late to the conversation, but why not use a 1.9 TDI engine and power adders (bigger turbo, injectors & chip) Can easily make big HP and Torque numbers, is a very small power plant and trans choices are large..


:? Even I wouldn't suggest a 1.9 TDI to someone who was considering a W12 :P It'll 'easily' make 200hp / 300lb-ft but beyond that it gets pretty expensive. Not sure anyone has managed 440hp from one!

Now a V8 TDI would be a different kettle of fish entirely, but thats probably a whole other thread :wink:


I second all the above.

It's like suggesting a 1,8T Audi A4 B6 to someone who's considering a Bugatti Veyron. It's a non-starter. :?

People buy diesel-engined cars for their miserly fuel consumption. A 1,9 TDI tuned from 130/150 hp to 200 and beyond, with a fatter snail and bigger injectors will be thirsty. Couple that to the higher initial investment (purchase price) and the higher cost of derv, then suddenly the sensible diesel becomes impractical.

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 Post subject: Re: W12 information for conversion.
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 4:07 pm 
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To each his (or her) own.. I have serveral very good friends with a MKIV Golf's (1.9PD) that is easily 200HP but +300Lb/Ft torque as their daily drivers get 50+MPG.. with lots more things that could be done for penny's on the dollar compared to the investment of a W12 +trans +100's of hours of fab work not to mention the 100's of hours of wiring - Just sayin.

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 Post subject: Re: W12 information for conversion.
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 4:40 pm 
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V8QinNJ wrote:
To each his (or her) own.. I have serveral very good friends with a MKIV Golf's (1.9PD) that is easily 200HP but +300Lb/Ft torque as their daily drivers get 50+MPG.. with lots more things that could be done for penny's on the dollar compared to the investment of a W12 +trans +100's of hours of fab work not to mention the 100's of hours of wiring - Just sayin.


I agree the mpg of a tuned 1,9 TDI will be higher than that of a stock 6,0 W12. But one thing's for sure - the OP must know he can't expect brilliant gas mileage out of a 6,0 engine. So I doubt mpg is really an issue here.

100's of hours of fabrication work to get a W12 into a VW Bug? That's part of the fun, a unique ride isn't simply a bolt-together job, otherwise everyone would be doing it. :-)

Personally, the 1,9 PD option doesn't do it for me. I also run a 2008 BMW 118D (2,0 turbo diesel). It's okay-ish.But not comparable to a big gas engine. The enjoyment element comes into things, in most cases above mpg. The flat monotone of a 4 banger diesel can never match the soundtrack of a highly-tuned I5/V6/V8/V10/W12 etc. It just doesn't.

Lastly, if gas mileage was the greatest deciding factor, most of us here would not be tuning our gas engines to produce big power, and guzzling more gas. We'd be leaving them stock, and probably be running Volkswagen Polo I3 TDI or similar. :D

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 Post subject: Re: W12 information for conversion.
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 7:53 pm 
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You can always go with a v10 tdi, but thats a rather heavy engine.
you could also get good power with larger snails and some tuning out of the 4l and 4.2l tdi engine, but again a cast v8 block weighs a lot

btw, why restrict yourself to vw/ audi engines, you can always go crazy and put a supercharged v8 form a benz, or their tt v12


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 Post subject: Re: W12 information for conversion.
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 12:53 am 
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Thanks for all the replies.

I've done TDI installs in other vehicles. The Oval will be staying with petrol power.

I'm a Vag fan and know the technology that they use and how to maintain it.

The reason for my interest in the W12 is that it fits the space I have in the middle of the bug.

Short, wide, over 400hp out of the box and normally aspirated.

Mpg is not in my mind for this project. Sound, individuality and power are.

I'll be breaking an S8 2001 soon so will have a very good idea as to just much work goes into using the stock wiring from a similar aged D2. I may even run the dash in the project, I haven't decided yet.

Both projects will run on stock ECUs so I can plug in etc. I have no problem with running all the sensors etc, why remove a system that Audi spent hundreds of thousands developing?

MG

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