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any interest in 10V MAC11 with coilpacks?

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 Post subject: any interest in 10V MAC11 with coilpacks?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 31, 2017 3:38 pm 
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So I've been entirely disassembling the MAC-11 firmware the last few months. I've got it to the point where I can start doing some neat things with it, one of which is adding a small board to give 5 spark outputs and run coilpacks. I will also remap to run higher pressure MAP sensor. You'd need to keep the distributor for the hall sensor (or put an AAN style one on the cam).

Adding launch control, etc shouldn't be a big deal either. Shouldn't need any hardware mod for that.

I deleted all the automatic / California related maps and checks to save some space and give some spare inputs.

I'll need to do some more experimenting but if people are interested I'll document it a bit better so others can do it as well, and make boards available for peanuts.


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 Post subject: Re: any interest in 10V MAC11 with coilpacks?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 31, 2017 5:50 pm 
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Hell yeah! Very interested!


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 31, 2017 5:55 pm 
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Also interested. You'd keep running CIS, or migrate to another system?

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 Post subject: Re: any interest in 10V MAC11 with coilpacks?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 31, 2017 6:55 pm 
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I'd also be interested, though I'm only using it for spark control at this point.

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 Post subject: Re: any interest in 10V MAC11 with coilpacks?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 31, 2017 8:30 pm 
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Alright, cool. So I haven't physically done the coil pack part yet, but all the signals are there. So you just need a divide by five circuit triggered off the 'new cylinder' interrupt, reset it to cyl #1 when the (60BTDC #1) reference sensor hits. Have that drive the coilpacks then (so you'd need to wire in switched +12, ground, and the 5 new outputs to the coilpacks).

Have to look into what dwell motronic uses with the typical VAG coilpacks and change the algorithm in there to compensate a bit if it's much different.

I'm going to keep CIS at least initially.

I'll post updates when I get a board made and tested.


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 Post subject: Re: any interest in 10V MAC11 with coilpacks?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 01, 2018 12:06 pm 
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Definitely interested as well, especially the launch control feature


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 Post subject: Re: any interest in 10V MAC11 with coilpacks?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 01, 2018 1:01 pm 
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Here's a few pics of my test setup so I can piddle with it on the bench.

I forgot to mention logging! logging will need hardware mod, though, as the built in serial port is already used (and painful slow anyway). So it will be necessary to install a logger board in the (empty) extra RAM socket. I'll develop something to drop in for that, too. Right now I'm just logging to the logic analyzer.

This is the ECU open, hooked up to my homebrew engine simulator and a logic analyzer
Image


Close up of the simulator, it can control air temp, coolant temp, engine speed, boost (have to wire that one in), simulate idle, WOT, etc switches, oxygen sensor, all working. Only thing I haven't quite got to simulate reliably is knock, need a bit of work on that.
Image

There's some irony in the engine simulator running a 84Mhz 32bit processor, when the ECU itself uses a 1MHz 8bit one...


Here's a screencap of the simulator output, software for it is still a work in progress, I kind of modify it a bit as I need to track down some variable in the ECU
Image

That's a shot of it @2k rpm, WFO switch floored, coolant temp hot, air temp cold as it goes, so the N75 (turbo solenoid) is maxed out because boost is below target. All those us values should be *10, i missed a 0 somewhere. So you can see for example, dwell is 6210us (6.2ms; 74 degrees), spark fires at 25 BTDC, CIS freq valve is at 67%, which is enrichment for the full throttle, etc.
Because running at only battery = 10.5V in this capture, it gives a lot of dwell. I forgot to mention simulator can change ECU supply voltage from 10 ... 15V.

Anyway, kind of a ramble but maybe it is interesting to someone.


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 Post subject: Re: any interest in 10V MAC11 with coilpacks?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 01, 2018 4:14 pm 
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That doesn't look like a generic simulation board. Do you work in PCB manufacturing?

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 Post subject: Re: any interest in 10V MAC11 with coilpacks?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 01, 2018 4:44 pm 
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Well I draw the schematic, and the PCB, send the files off and someone else physically makes the bare board. Then I assemble it, program it. Getting custom boards from China is incredibly cheap now, like $10 for ten 4x4" boards.

You can get smaller boards made in the US for competitive price, but at this size China is a lot cheaper for one off. I'll probably use the US supplier (oshpark) for eg coil pack board, logger board etc, as they will be small.


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 Post subject: Re: any interest in 10V MAC11 with coilpacks?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 11:23 pm 
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This is well beyond anything I know about but I'm completely impressed. Love to see where this ends up!


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 Post subject: Re: any interest in 10V MAC11 with coilpacks?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 2:43 pm 
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Well I went on a bit of a tangent.

My old '84 with KH is in general pretty similar to MC, All the ECU outputs are pretty much the same (no charcoal canister solenoid maybe, i forget now, but all the meat is the same).

However the MAC-07 only has 1/2 the program size, and 2/3rds the RAM of the MAC-11 - so it must be stripped to the bare minimum. As far as I know no one has chipped a MAC-07 because the firmware is baked into the microcontroller, and it is not reprogrammable.

Code:
ECU     MAC-07                             MAC-11C
CPU     HD6301V  40pin              HD6303X  64pin
RAM    128B                              196B
ROM    4K                                     0 (8K external)

However, you can set it's mode to boot to an external EPROM, like how MAC-11 works. So I wrote a small program on external EPROM, to dump the internal ROM, so I can compare programs between MAC-07 and 11. This also gives the potential to chip MAC-07 computers, You'd need to install a board that holds MCU+EPROM and plugs into where the stock MCU was.
Image


Haven't had a ton of time to look at the new dump, but a lot of the functions are the same. it only has one spark map (to save space I guess), so I'm assuming it will run a lot more retard on knock, or maybe just add a flat value of retard at all positions as a regular octane "map". I'm curious to see if it uses the 'D2808' external timer/ADC chip any differently, which might give me a bit more insight into it and the knock control.


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 Post subject: Re: any interest in 10V MAC11 with coilpacks?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 8:45 pm 
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Ok guys, made some progress.

I found some 3 bar sensors on huge sale at one of the places I get parts from, so I designed a board for drop in 2.5/3 bar upgrade (same sensor comes in a 2.5bar version too). I've got a prototype on the way, and if it works ill make more and make them available. I'll need to hook a gauge to the stock boost sensor to make sure the output is linear, which was my assumption but it would be good to have actual numbers.

Then I can remap all the boost references in the MAC-11, and rescale the timing map. (any advice on what the timing map should look like > 1.5bar? flat appears to work as that's what is happening currently, but probably want to pull back a bit above / near 2 bar). Also I suppose if it doesn't knock at 1.9 bar on the 1.5bar settings, you could probably advance it lower down, some. We'll see when the knock pull logger is running...

I put an opamp to scale the output that goes the the cluster gauge, so that it will read true (but top out ~2 bar). Other alternative is to not do that, and know that you're at 1.5x what the gauge says, which isn't great. Ideally rescaling the cluster to read >2 bar would be ideal but that's for another battle.


Also designed a prototype board for selecting and driving the coilpacks. I'll post and update when they show up, i assemble them, and do some testing.


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 Post subject: Re: any interest in 10V MAC11 with coilpacks?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 11:08 am 
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Great work!
With the MC2/MAC-14 I have found you have to reduce spark lead to around 14 degrees at peak torque at 15 psi with premium 92.
There are some other maps that you will need to adjust with a 2.5 or 3 bar map sensor. One 1x16 map controls the point at which the ECU switches fuel trim from closed loop to open loop. Another is a single byte value that needs to be increased to eliminate a low engine load fuel cutoff.
I will see if I have the addresses for these maps for the MAC-11.
Both the MAC-11 and MAC-14 use 1 byte rpm values multiplied by 25 for a maximum of 6375 rpm. It would be nice if we could adjust the scalar for the rpm values to gain a little more control at high rpms (30 would give 7650 rpms). Any idea how this might be accomplished? I am not a programmer.

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 Post subject: Re: any interest in 10V MAC11 with coilpacks?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 7:02 pm 
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Yeah, there are a bunch of things that will need adjusting with a new map sensor:

Big ones are of course the main axis for ignition, target boost, boost limit. MAC-11 doesn't have the 1x16 exactly (it uses WOT switch, but if it is faulty it falls back to two 1x16 MAP maps - one for open loop, WOT, and another for open loop, 'near wot'). There's a single byte that controls when knock control turns on (0.7bar), a threshold of when the car is on boost (thow MIL if boosting with bad IAT sensor, other things). The PID maps for the wastegate solenoid rely on the sensor too. The ECU also uses the sensor before cranking to figure out atmospheric pressure (which seems to effect fueling on cold start <500m elevation). Oh, and the knock maps rely on another MAP axis.

Since I've got it all macro'd in the assembly file, you'll just need to change the factor in one location and reassemble and it will tweak all those. (assuming the output from the stock sensor is reasonably linear, might be a bit of work otherwise. I think it is, though).


RPM is a 16 bit internally, but they make it a 8 bit for most functions to save space and make the math easier. I think leaving it as it is for most things is a good idea (for eg the idle rpm its already really low resolution). But if we free up a byte of ram, having another, differently scaled one just for ignition should be no problem.


I forgot, there's one more manifold pressure based thing. I didn't quite figure out what it is, yet. The axis is the rise in manifold pressure vs time, and the map is used in cold start valve calculations - so i think it's to give a shot from the CSV on acceleration under some conditions

My test jig increases boost too slow to trip it, I'll have to adjust it's code and see. It looks like it does nearly nothing at 1bar/s, and a lot of something 6bar/s+, but there are probably other conditionals around it.


I'll post an xdf sometime when I clean mine up a bit, with everything defined. One thing I'm having trouble with, with the car in the cold so I can't go measure directly... Most people refer to the reference sensor being 62 degrees BTDC. Maybe I've seen 60 in a couple locations. The code really makes me think it is 60, but maybe not.

How it works is the timer chip on there counts the flywheel teeth edges since the reference pin hit, once it reaches the desired count, it fires. Each tooth edge is 1.333 degrees. There's a nominal limiter in the code, where the (barring weird conditions) limit on timing is reference hit + 5 edges .... 45 edges. (x1.333 degrees/edge = +6.6666 ... 60 degrees).
So full advance would be reference pin location +6.6666 deg, and max retard would be +60 deg. (plus less than 1.333 as the pin and teeth don't seem quite aligned in pictures).

Anyway with pin 62BTDC that works out to a range of:
55.33 ... 2.00 BTDC
and with pin at 60BTDC:
53.33 ... 0 BTDC. Seems more likely to me? maybe not. Not very important anyway, just curious.


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 Post subject: Re: any interest in 10V MAC11 with coilpacks?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 9:00 pm 
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I hooked a vacuum gauge up to the stock map sensor today to try and get some data out of it, see how linear it is. Not sure how accurate the gauge was, but it seems fairly linear. Didn't have a pressure gauge handy so i didn't check the boost region but it's pretty much the same anyway.

Image

red line is what I had assumed, 2 bars, 8 bits, so each bit is 2/256 worth. But sensor usually has a little offset or isnt quite linear. Green is curve I made that fits a bit closer. (I'm taking 1.95bar top right purple dot as gospel, i should have measured. I don't like how close it is to the rail (4.88V, almost 5V...). Instead of the dumb sine actual curve equation there it's probably better to just keep it as linear, but drop the slope a bit and add an offset from zero. But I think the top end by 1.95bar is likely compressing and not linear.

1.95bar is actually outside the range of what the ECU flags as 'valid' (0.25V ... 4.75V).

Difference in output on map, pretty negligible anyway:
Image


curve, err line, from new 3 bar sensor (MPXH6300A)
Image


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 Post subject: Re: any interest in 10V MAC11 with coilpacks?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 03, 2018 11:56 am 
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Ok, got the prototype boards in for 3 bar sensor, and for the e-distributor for coilpacks. Gonna try and get those built and tested this week.

Just for no reason, here is the decision tree where the ECU decides whether it should run the boost control or not.
Code:
.chk_limp_mode:
   ldaa   #TCSR1_EOCI1
   sei         ; disable interrupts
   oraa   TCSR1
   staa   TCSR1      ; enable OC interrupt
   cli         ; enable interrupts
   ifset   #regBD_FAULT_WFO_SWITCH, regBD,   .N75_limp_mode
   ifsw   WFO, OFF,         .N75_limp_mode
   ifset   #vbA4_KNOCKTIME_LIMP_ON, vbA4,   .N75_limp_mode
   ifset   #regBB_FAULT_BOOST_ANY, regBB,   .N75_limp_mode
   ifclr   #PORT57_NOT_OVERHEATING, PORT5,   .N75_limp_mode
   ifset   #regBD_FAULT_IDLE_SWITCH, regBD, .N75_limp_mode
   ifsw   IDLE, OFF, .N75_turgid

.N75_limp_mode:
   clrbit   (reg90_BOOST_DELTA_POSITIVE | reg90_BOOST_DEVIATION_POSITIVE), reg90
   ldd   #0x7F80         ; reset integral to 50%
   std   N75_duty_scratch_w
   clra
   jmp   clr_N75_frac_duty   ; set n75 duty to 0, end


basically if: the WFO switch is broken, or throttle isn't open enough to trigger it, or engine is detecting a lot of knock, a problem with the MAP sensor (or hose), engine overheating (+119C contact in MTFS), idle switch broken, idle switch pressed - no boost control, and you're left with only wastegate spring pressure.


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 Post subject: Re: any interest in 10V MAC11 with coilpacks?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 2:24 pm 
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So the small board to run coilpacks..
I'd think that would work for the 3B motor too then, wouldn't it? :-)

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 Post subject: Re: any interest in 10V MAC11 with coilpacks?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 3:53 pm 
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I'd imagine so. I've never been into one of the old motronic ECUs though, and don't have one available to test.

It just needs two signals. One is normal ignition output (that would go to the amp in the stock coil), and another to reset when it's lined up for #1. Pretty simple.

I got one prototype built but it's not working 100%. I need to hook up the logic analyzer and see what the issue is, and correct it. Hoping for something minor...

edit: Oh - it was something stupid. Wire was hooked to the wrong pin, looks good now on the bench... just need to put it in a car when I get a chance!


edit edit:

Here's what the circuit does, waveform. Only coilpack #1 is shown but 2, 4, 5, 3 will follow, staggered.

Image


And this is the board. It has a 15 pin "junior timer" connector like VAG uses on everything (but you only need 5 or 6 pins... so I brought them out as 'spare' for future functions). I'm having second thoughts about that choice, I was planning on having the board sit above the map sensor but I don't think it will clear. Maybe make a new design with different connector if it passes the in car test.

Image


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 Post subject: Re: any interest in 10V MAC11 with coilpacks?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 6:15 pm 
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Here's a really short clip of it running. The LED closest to the screw is cyl #1. I think this is 300 rpm, I forget. Something really slow.


Link to video


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 Post subject: Re: any interest in 10V MAC11 with coilpacks?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 11:13 am 
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Hi marko,

very interesting things you`re doing. where you started with disassembling, loading bin into IDA?
i tried this some years ago, but i`m not skilled enough. i even didn`t know how to import the bin of the hn61364p mcu. i do not own any MC engine any more, so i can´t help you testing :wink:
i would like to crawl true the code, so any suggestion how to disassemble would be very nice.
thank you, i wish you success to your work.
quattrolino


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 12:47 pm 
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Basically in IDA, process is this

load binary - tell it to load it at 0xE000. Set mcu to '6303'.

Jump to end of the hex file, press d d to make 16 bit word. that's your reset vector at $FFFF-FFFE ($E666 for MAC-11). Jump there, press P or C to make it to code, etc. Can do the same for the other vectors $FFFF-FFFE, $FFFD-FFFC, etc. if you read datasheet it shows which vector corresponds to what interrupt.

But I'll just post my disassembly, that should be a looot easier to understand. I just need to clean it up more.

here is a snip from output from my assembler
Code:
FFF6  FF3F                 fdb VECTOR_ICP      ; VECT_icf (timer input capture)
FFF8  E71A                 fdb VECTOR_IRQ      ; VECT_irq (nIRQ or nIS3)
FFFA  E666                 fdb VECTOR_RESET   ; VECT_swi (software reset)
FFFC  E666                 fdb VECTOR_RESET   ; VECT_nmi (nNMI)
FFFE  E666                 fdb VECTOR_RESET   ; VECT_reset


so on boot mcu loads address at very end $FFFE, which contains $E666, so it jumps to $E666. which contains the bootup code:

Code:
E666                    VECTOR_RESET:
E666  8E 00FF              lds   #RAM_END   ; Load   stack pointer to RAM_END
E669  CE 0040              ldx   #RAM_START   ; Load index register to RAM_START

                        ; software reset
E66C                    main:
                        ; set up IO and peripherals.
                           ; set up SCI
                           ; 8 bit asynch, internal clock
                           ; no input/output enabled
                           ; baud rate E/4096 (xtal/16384)
                           ; 244 baud @ 4MHz xtal
                           ; CC1:0 = 0,1 frees up sck pin for general use, something like that
E66C                       wr_mema #(RMCR_SS0 | RMCR_SS1 | RMCR_CC0), RMCR
E66C  86 07                ldaa   #(RMCR_SS0 | RMCR_SS1 | RMCR_CC0)
E66E  97 10                staa   RMCR

[snip]


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 Post subject: Re: any interest in 10V MAC11 with coilpacks?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:32 pm 
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Following this thread b/c its awesome. There I said it. Its been a long time since I posted something. Brings me back to my MAC-11 days... lmao.

Keep it up, cannot wait to see this payoff.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 5:13 pm 
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I've had a string of bad car luck. Wrecked my A4 a while back. Bought it back but I can't get it inspected until I track down a new bumper. I've been borrowing dad's 2.7t C5. It's been leaking a little fuel around the injectors when it's cold out. Replaced the O-rings, looks like it's fixed.

Nope. Coldest day in a while today (-30)... Fire it up, let it warm up a bit and the injectors are pissing fuel all over, looks like it's the injectors themselves.

So, that leaves me down to the 5ktq. So I got it to start, new warm battery. Put the bumper on, put a hose clamp on the oil cooler line that has a rusted out ferrule, changed oil, fixed a door handle. Bled brakes (had just converted the front to ATE 57s a while back). Back brakes are making an awful noise from having sat so long that they got fairly rusty, maybe I'll have to change them. I was hoping they would self surface...

Anyway uh my point is the 5ktq is back!


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PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2018 6:19 pm 
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Any updates?

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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 9:31 pm 
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Not much lately. Designed a board to allow full monitoring of all the variables in realtime but haven't got it fabbed yet.

Put on new rear brakes last weekend, and a couple of bushings. Fixed the power windows. Gotta do a bunch more bushings and then I'll probably daily drive it while I paint my current DD... Hopefully get some testing in there, somewhere this summer.


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