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Sport quattro copy.. project resurrection

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 Post subject: Re: Sport quattro copy..... alloy block and waiting for spri
PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2014 7:04 am 
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mach 2 with my hair on fire
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That is a sound theory, except the driver side alloy mount (LHD) is the same part number for all engines (WX, GV, WR, KW) 857 199 307A.. and it looks it too, complete with provisions for hydraulic accumulator, which KW had in a different location BTW.

So.. cant change one side without changing the other... unless we are missing some other piece of the puzzle.

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82 Ur-q - SQ project, long term
83 80 q - Euro 2-door!!
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 Post subject: Re: Sport quattro copy..... alloy block and waiting for spri
PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 6:32 pm 
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An alloy block? :o I can't wait to see this thing come together.

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 Post subject: Re: Sport quattro copy..... alloy block and waiting for spri
PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 1:51 am 
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How much are these blocks worth?

A friend of mine had two of these blocks and gave them to scrapyard :frustrated:


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 Post subject: Re: Sport quattro copy..... alloy block and waiting for spri
PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 5:20 am 
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GT4 wrote:
How much are these blocks worth?

A friend of mine had two of these blocks and gave them to scrapyard :frustrated:


I hope he is not your friend anymore... :o

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Martin Pajak
www.quattro.ca
82 Ur-q - SQ project, long term
83 80 q - Euro 2-door!!
85 Ur-q - Euro with 3B
93 90 quattro - S2 Limo copy
93 80q Avant - 2.5TDI, 6-speed in the works
04 A4q avant 1.8T USP 6-speed
04 A4q avant 3.0 USP 6-speed


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 Post subject: Re: Sport quattro copy..... alloy block and waiting for spri
PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 6:24 am 
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GT4 do you need that block? I just looked around and it seems there is one for sale in Lithuania, not too far for you. I think the seller is not aware that it is alu block. PM for a link

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 Post subject: Re: Sport quattro copy..... alloy block and waiting for spri
PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 6:33 am 
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No I don't need such block but I know were I can get one or two, or even three ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Sport quattro copy..... alloy block and waiting for spri
PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 7:04 am 
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You guys should read up on the history of those blocks for racing. It's pretty cool if I remember right. They put just enough of them in taxis in Europe so they could satisfy homologation and then kept maybe 50 for racing? The failure rate on them in rally was pretty high so they actually had to bring the taxis in for "service". They swapped the aluminum blocks back out of them for iron as it was too expensive to cast more. So, really they never were legal to race since they didn't have enough parts in the wild.

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 Post subject: Re: Sport quattro copy..... alloy block and waiting for spri
PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 7:12 am 
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Another package, another piece of the puzzle..

The last Sport Quattro piston from Audi Tradition. It will make a perfect template for some custom jobies:

Image

Image

Provides nice 8:1 compression.

Also got some original sport rad hoses which they still had for a song!

More to come.

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www.quattro.ca
82 Ur-q - SQ project, long term
83 80 q - Euro 2-door!!
85 Ur-q - Euro with 3B
93 90 quattro - S2 Limo copy
93 80q Avant - 2.5TDI, 6-speed in the works
04 A4q avant 1.8T USP 6-speed
04 A4q avant 3.0 USP 6-speed


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 Post subject: Re: Sport quattro copy..... alloy block and waiting for spri
PostPosted: Thu May 22, 2014 5:49 am 
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mach 2 with my hair on fire
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Rear Sport quattro brake recipe
Ingredients:
1 Sport quattro rear strut housing
1 Sport quattro rear caliper
1 Sport quattro rear parking caliper
1 Sport quattro brake rotor
1 Special parking caliper bolt
1 5 bolt hub
1 75mm wheel bearing kit (with C clips).

#1 press in bearing and hub

Image

#2, install the rotor

Image

#3 install parking brake caliper with special pin bolt (available at Audi Tradition).

Image

#4 Add the 4 piston AP caliper

Image

Image

#5 season with wheel of choice. Repeat for the other side and serve with smile.

Image

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Martin Pajak
www.quattro.ca
82 Ur-q - SQ project, long term
83 80 q - Euro 2-door!!
85 Ur-q - Euro with 3B
93 90 quattro - S2 Limo copy
93 80q Avant - 2.5TDI, 6-speed in the works
04 A4q avant 1.8T USP 6-speed
04 A4q avant 3.0 USP 6-speed


Last edited by ralleyquattro on Tue Nov 25, 2014 6:27 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Sport quattro copy..... alloy block and back to work
PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2014 8:49 am 
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More please.


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 Post subject: Re: Sport quattro copy..... alloy block and back to work
PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2014 7:01 pm 
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mach 2 with my hair on fire
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Got a response from Mahle... the SQ piston is right in between two forgings they have, so the only option they are giving me is a billet piston. At roughly twice the cost.
Anyone have experience with billet pistons?
Also, scored a crank this week, so work on the alloy engine will start this winter.
Just need a block with oil squirters to use as a sample for the machine shop to install some new ones into mine...
Mr Cook offered to lend me one of his AAN blocks for that.

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Martin Pajak
www.quattro.ca
82 Ur-q - SQ project, long term
83 80 q - Euro 2-door!!
85 Ur-q - Euro with 3B
93 90 quattro - S2 Limo copy
93 80q Avant - 2.5TDI, 6-speed in the works
04 A4q avant 1.8T USP 6-speed
04 A4q avant 3.0 USP 6-speed


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 Post subject: Re: Sport quattro copy..... alloy block and back to work
PostPosted: Sat Sep 27, 2014 4:31 pm 
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ralleyquattro wrote:
Got a response from Mahle... the SQ piston is right in between two forgings they have, so the only option they are giving me is a billet piston. At roughly twice the cost.
Anyone have experience with billet pistons?

Which forging is the SQ piston? When they say billet they mean 2618?
Mahle 124? 142? 138? M-SP25 (internal name for 2618)?
Whatever the case a set of 5 will run you around $1200 USD.

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 Post subject: Re: Sport quattro copy..... alloy block and back to work
PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 5:55 am 
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Billet piston would be machined from a forged bar.
Cost is $450 per piston i.e. a set will be $2250.
Not cheap.

I've seen few issues with JE in Audi application (skirt wear etc etc) so reluctant to go with them.
Maybe I'll win the lottery so who knows.

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www.quattro.ca
82 Ur-q - SQ project, long term
83 80 q - Euro 2-door!!
85 Ur-q - Euro with 3B
93 90 quattro - S2 Limo copy
93 80q Avant - 2.5TDI, 6-speed in the works
04 A4q avant 1.8T USP 6-speed
04 A4q avant 3.0 USP 6-speed


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 Post subject: Re: Sport quattro copy..... alloy block and back to work
PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 9:36 am 
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ralleyquattro wrote:
Billet piston would be machined from a forged bar.
Cost is $450 per piston i.e. a set will be $2250.
Not cheap.

Yes but what alloy composition?

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 Post subject: Re: Sport quattro copy..... alloy block and back to work
PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 11:31 am 
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mach 2 with my hair on fire
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They have 4032 and 2618 alloy billets to choose. Stock piston was made from 4032

Hope this helps

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www.quattro.ca
82 Ur-q - SQ project, long term
83 80 q - Euro 2-door!!
85 Ur-q - Euro with 3B
93 90 quattro - S2 Limo copy
93 80q Avant - 2.5TDI, 6-speed in the works
04 A4q avant 1.8T USP 6-speed
04 A4q avant 3.0 USP 6-speed


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 Post subject: Re: Sport quattro copy..... alloy block and back to work
PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 1:58 pm 
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From my research, the 2618 was responsible for the skirt damage due to thermal expansion. 2618 was designed for race applications and as such the tolerance differences (much tighter, IIRC) vs. 4032 needed adjusting.

Martin have you checked into other brands besides JE? In the USA, CP and Wiseco both make nice units, as do Wossner (with in house foundry and production all the way from raw materials to shipping) from Germany. I have prices and contact info for all of them in my research thread.

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 Post subject: Re: Sport quattro copy..... alloy block and back to work
PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 2:12 pm 
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ralleyquattro wrote:
They have 4032 and 2618 alloy billets to choose. Stock piston was made from 4032

Hope this helps

I would not use 4032 for pistons. It is too soft....unless you are doing an OEM theme.
Not a fan of 2618 either unless you are running standalone. Any management associated with knock sensitivity gets set off at the slightest pinging from a 2618 alloy piston expanding.
JE, CP , Wossner , Wiseco etc all use 2618 alloy (some variants are 4032). The problem with Wossner is there is no "1 single person" you are dealing with for a custom piston. It is either a sales rep or a junior engineer.
We argued with Wossner about 3 years ago as they refused to change there technical descriptions with respect to the MK5 GTI 2,0 FSI turbo offering. We measured the piston dish @ -1cc which would have yielded a CR in the 11.5:1 range. They stated it was for "FSI" and what they failed to point out to the end user was the AXW (2.0 FSI N/A) was different than the BPY (2.0 FSI Turbo).

Personally (unbiased) I would go with the Mahle Motorsport powerpak units @ $1200 USD/5 made from Mahle 142 alloy assuming they can use the forging to suite your needs. They are machined in Tennesse using German forgings and Mahle 142 alloy is the alloy used in the high performance OEM's now. So the Audi TTRS , VW MK6 GTI , RS4 etc all use a 142 alloy. Its proprietary to Volkswagen Auto Group specifically VW/Audi and is a blend of 2618 and 4032. The exact ratio is undisclosed as Mahle won't disclose that information to anyone (even distributors).

If you need more help with this send me an email and I would be more than willing to help. Would just need the :
- Cylinder head code source
- Compression Height
- Wrist pin diameter
- Bore size (79.5 --83mm)
- Compression ratio desired - assuming you CC'ed your cylinder head and figured out what head gasket you used to calculate Vc.
hth

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 Post subject: Re: Sport quattro copy..... alloy block and back to work
PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 2:17 pm 
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Dayyyyum Issam. I should have just talked to you last year. Would have saved me hours and hours of skimming conjecture in various threads, and countless dead end phone calls/emails to various manufacturers. Well played, sir.

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|| 2002 Dodge Ram 2500 24v Cummins 4x4 #bertancummins
|| 1992 80 quattro 20v /// Eventual AAN'd Winter Sled
|| 1990 Coupe quattro /// #becauseracecar

|| Spare parts for sale


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 Post subject: Re: Sport quattro copy..... alloy block and back to work
PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2014 9:46 am 
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Wizard-of-OD wrote:
Personally (unbiased) I would go with the Mahle Motorsport powerpak units @ $1200 USD/5 made from Mahle 142 alloy assuming they can use the forging to suite your needs.


I've sent them the original, they do not have a forging that fits the spec.
The ONLY option they are giving me is billet @ $450 per piston.
Maybe the guy I am dealing with is junior or does not know about other options, you might know more than him about his own product, not the first time.

Have sent you a PM on FB.

Cheers

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Martin Pajak
www.quattro.ca
82 Ur-q - SQ project, long term
83 80 q - Euro 2-door!!
85 Ur-q - Euro with 3B
93 90 quattro - S2 Limo copy
93 80q Avant - 2.5TDI, 6-speed in the works
04 A4q avant 1.8T USP 6-speed
04 A4q avant 3.0 USP 6-speed


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 Post subject: Re: Sport quattro copy..... alloy block and back to work
PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2014 10:41 am 
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There has been a bit of a confusion regarding sport pistons on my side, I assumed that KW used 144mm rod, where in fact it does not.

So... looks like I am getting some pistons made and I am given 2 options:
1. Pay $1400+ for a 1 off set of 5 pieces
2. Pay $800 for a set of 5 pieces if I can meet the MOQ
Considering JE’s go for roughly $1200 to $1500 depending on the options I am going to go the Mahle Motorsport route.

Here are the stipulations:
• MOQ of 40 pieces – 8 sets of 5 cylinder pistons.
• Mahle 142 Alloy forging will be used ( a blend between 2618 & 4032 alloy)
• Lead time 4-6 weeks (Could be longer , could be shorter as it depends on when they will be cutting another group from that forging).
• Mahle proprietary Grafal coating applied as standard (no need to farm out for coated skirts and crowns like the JE’s)
• Fixed CC for Dish volume
• Fixed cut out for intake valve diameter – I would probably go with +2mm oversized on the cut outs for those running Ferrea/Supertech larger diameter valves
• Fixed Compression Height – so for those who want to use the 2.5L block will be forced to use a 160mm connecting rod.
• Fixed wrist pin diameter

The only variable will be the bore diameter.

These will be the specs for my set:
• Bore = 79.5mm
• Stroke = 86.4mm
• Block = 7A/AAN/ADU/3B @ 220mm Deck height
• Connecting Rod length = 144mm
• Compression Height = 220 – [(86.4/2) + 144] = 32.8mm
• Piston Dish CC = 12cc
• Wrist pin = 20mm

An Elring AAN 20V Turbo head gasket has a max bore of 82.2mm and a thickness when fully compressed of 1.6mm = 8.49cc
A Stock 7A cylinder head with flat Ferrea/Supertech Standard Size valves has a volume of 44cc in the valve pocket area.

Vc = 4cc + 44cc + 8.49cc = 56.49

79.5mm bore x 86.4mm stroke = 2144.4cc : Vh = 2144.4 / 5 = 428.88 cc / cylinder
81.0mm bore x 86.4mm stroke = 2226.1cc : Vh = 445.20 cc / cylinder
81.5mm bore x 86.4mm stroke = 2253.7cc : Vh = 450.74 cc / cylinder
82.5mm bore x 86.4mm stroke = 2309.3cc : Vh = 461.86 cc / cylinder
83.0mm bore x 86.4mm stroke = 2337.4cc : Vh = 467.44 cc / cylinder


Based on my math a 79.5mm bore piston (for me) will yield the following:
E (compression ratio) = (Vh + Vc) / Vc
= 428.88 + 56.49 / 56.49
= 8.6:1 CR

For sample if I went to an 83mm bore the CR would be:
= 467.44 + 56.49 / 56.49
= 9.27:1 CR

So the range of CR will be from 8.6:1 to 9.3:1 depending on the bore size chosen.

Now these are the possible combinations for the order:

(1) 79.5mm bore x 86.4mm stroke – Martin Pajak
(4) 81mm bore x 86.4mm stroke – for the AAN users with a good bore
(2) 82.5mm bore x 86.4mm stroke – for anyone that wants to overbore the block
(1) 83mm bore x 86.4mm stroke – for 2337cc

The remaining 7 sets can be any number of combinations for the bore size. Without meeting the MOQ this will be a custom order.
If you are interested, let me know

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www.quattro.ca
82 Ur-q - SQ project, long term
83 80 q - Euro 2-door!!
85 Ur-q - Euro with 3B
93 90 quattro - S2 Limo copy
93 80q Avant - 2.5TDI, 6-speed in the works
04 A4q avant 1.8T USP 6-speed
04 A4q avant 3.0 USP 6-speed


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 Post subject: Re: Sport quattro copy.. MAHLE Pistons R US possible group
PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2014 2:21 pm 
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mach 2 with my hair on fire
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Good luck with the pistons, Martin.

I never paid attention to where Milton was until just now. Having done work recently in Owen Sound, ON, and Hamilton, ON, I now see how close I was to where you live.

Pretty interesting!

Eric

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 Post subject: Re: Sport quattro copy.. MAHLE Pistons R US possible group
PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 6:22 pm 
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Since there is virtually no interest in the custom pistons I'll be going ahead and ordering myself a set.

ON a more parts gathering mission.. here are Ur-q steering arms that will be welded in proper position on some NOS 5kt struts.. the plan is to duplicate the Sport front strut as much as possible. These arms get welded upside down and a lot lower on the strut compared to the ur-q one.

Image

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Martin Pajak
www.quattro.ca
82 Ur-q - SQ project, long term
83 80 q - Euro 2-door!!
85 Ur-q - Euro with 3B
93 90 quattro - S2 Limo copy
93 80q Avant - 2.5TDI, 6-speed in the works
04 A4q avant 1.8T USP 6-speed
04 A4q avant 3.0 USP 6-speed


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 Post subject: Re: Sport quattro copy.. more parts....
PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2015 10:51 am 
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mach 2 with my hair on fire
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Not much work has happened over the winter.... but can't help myself when parts come up... ;)

Image

Image

Image

Hoping to do some actual work soon now that this side of the earth has come up from below freezing!!

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Martin Pajak
www.quattro.ca
82 Ur-q - SQ project, long term
83 80 q - Euro 2-door!!
85 Ur-q - Euro with 3B
93 90 quattro - S2 Limo copy
93 80q Avant - 2.5TDI, 6-speed in the works
04 A4q avant 1.8T USP 6-speed
04 A4q avant 3.0 USP 6-speed


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 Post subject: Re: Sport quattro copy.. more parts....
PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2015 10:43 am 
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I'm always surprised how you get these rare parts together.
Top !

Cheers,
Mark


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 Post subject: Re: Sport quattro copy.. more parts....
PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2015 6:56 pm 
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mach 2 with my hair on fire
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Deleted, the alloy struts never came and I was lucky to get most of the $$ back...

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Martin Pajak
www.quattro.ca
82 Ur-q - SQ project, long term
83 80 q - Euro 2-door!!
85 Ur-q - Euro with 3B
93 90 quattro - S2 Limo copy
93 80q Avant - 2.5TDI, 6-speed in the works
04 A4q avant 1.8T USP 6-speed
04 A4q avant 3.0 USP 6-speed


Last edited by ralleyquattro on Sun Feb 14, 2016 11:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

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