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1987 Quantum Syncro AAN swap / 24 Hours of Lemons insanity

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 Post subject: 1987 Quantum Syncro AAN swap / 24 Hours of Lemons insanity
PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2013 1:37 pm 
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Chirping second

Joined: Wed May 15, 2013 11:27 am
Posts: 99
Location: aurora, il
Some backstory here: viewtopic.php?t=52045

Image

So, we done-blowed-up our 10v engine in the Quantum -- and it seemed like finding a JT block was going to be just as hard/expensive as something faster, but ultimately less rewarding. I had then resolved myself to pursue a V8 or 10vT swap because going slow is boring.

Then, this appeared on my local CL for $2k:
Image
A 1993 S4 in a slight front end collision! After a little hard bargaining, it became mine for $1000! No idea what it looks like inside (yet), however the timing belt was torn/cut (hoping it was cut post-accident), so needless to say I never heard it run. Engine still had coolant and oil, but no fuses, battery, or key -- and obviously no timing belt. Cam gear spins with relative ease by hand, so that's a good sign.

---
An aside on the 24 Hours of Lemons and $500 cars:
By now, surely you're all exclaiming "no way that's a $500 car!!" -- true. The way Lemons works, however, is that after each race you are assessed a residual value based on how much of an asskicking your car took at its last outing. My residual value is $1, which means I have $499 to spend on cheaty go-fast parts! Thusly, as long as I sell $500 worth of stuff from this S4, I'm set -- should have no problem getting that once I send the car to the crusher
---

Back to the project at hand. Let's start this out simple:
-obviously, need to swap over the motor and ecu/harness. what else, if anything from this S4 is usable on the Quantum?
-I was thinking of keeping the Quantum's 016 syncro trans, but since I have a complete S4 parts car, anything is possible! From where I stand, it seems like the only good reason to use the S4 drivetrain would be to leverage the center torsen diff -- might be nice for road racing. but that's more work.
-chip would be nice, but probably will forego that since it would break my budget (*cough* someone sponsor me with a chip *cough*)

Final note: I really have no idea what I'm getting in to. I've done some basic searching and it seems like this is pretty much bolt-in-ish... right? Hoping to cobble this hunk of crap back together for the Road America event November 2/3... all advice welcome.

Oh, and if anyone needs any UrS4 parts- I'm the guy!

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 Post subject: Re: 1987 Quantum Syncro AAN swap / 24 Hours of Lemons insani
PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 7:51 am 
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Chirping second

Joined: Wed May 15, 2013 11:27 am
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Location: aurora, il
I'll start this post off by saying that I'm a terrible build-thread updater-guy: I barely have time to do all the work required on the car, let alone take any meaningful pics and write update posts :(

Also, I see my previous pics are broken- I will try to fix those and upload the remainder that I have soon... however today's post is a plea for help!! :

The engine has been mated to the transmission and is now in. The car started for the first time yesterday! There are still tons of odds and ends to tie up, but I ran into a rather disturbing problem last night: when attempting to drive the car out of the garage, I cannot get the car into /any/ gear while the motor is running (I was able to jam it into reverse once). With the motor not running, I can get the car into all gears (not perfect, but pretty darn good feeling).

When the car is running, I depress the clutch pedal (feels pretty firm) and as I attempt to put the car into gear, I feel resistance on the shift knob and the engine will bog down proportionate to how hard I am trying to jam the gear in.

Furthermore, the car does not want to roll while in gear & clutch depressed.

The initial bleed of the slave cylinder was done by having someone pump the pedal. According to the Bentley, you need to pressure bleed it. Thinking this was the problem, I hastily built a pressure bleeder - still no luck :( [as an aside- while the bentley tells you to do a pressure bleed, it doesnt tell you how to do so... so I may have been doing it wrong?]

other relevant facts: firewall is broken by slave cylinder, and the slave cylinder is angled slightly upward preventing the ideal pedal+plunger angle, but it still seems like it should be working. (I'm going to weld on some sheet metal to fix it).
7a flywheel
ClutchNet pressure plate and disc from a 200 Quattro ("3b", I believe)
Re-used whatever TOB was on the car (it had a sub 1k mile clutch, so the TOB was new)

PLEASE HELP ME FIGURE THIS OUT! Less than 2 weeks until the race. REALLY hoping not to have to drop the tranny again...

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 Post subject: Re: 1987 Quantum Syncro AAN swap / 24 Hours of Lemons insani
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 2:49 pm 
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Chirping second

Joined: Wed May 15, 2013 11:27 am
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Alright kids, its been about a week since the race and I promised I would circle back and give some updates!

The good:
-We finished! Not only did we finish without blowing up, but we managed P16 overall and P4 in class (out of 75 cars)
-Our best lap time around Road America was 3:12:xx. Easily one of the top 10 fastest cars. Based on my internet research, this is about the time a stock Subaru STI would run.
-226 laps completed in 14.5 hours, for a grand total of over 915 race miles
-diff locks!! OMG!! more on this in a minute
-034 street density motor and trans mounts worked GREAT! we ran without a snub mount (mostly due to huge radiator and intercooler) and had about 1/2" of clearance between the crank pulley and intercooler. Engine didn't budge at all.

The bad:
-I put the car 4 wheels off on the first lap. I blame wet track, cold tires, and all the other lame excuses you can think of.
-We use a lot more fuel with the AAN than the JT. 18.5 gallons used to last us 3h15m (LONG stints) and now we are refueling every 2h-2h15m
-Invisible wall of power loss at high RPM. What RPM? I have no clue- the only instruments we had working were the alternator indicator light and hazard lights (-: Speedo? Nah. Tach? Unlikely. Fuel gauge? Who needs one. Oil & water temp? What kind of luxurious world do YOU live in. Boost gauge? YEAH RIGHT!
-This car DESTROYS the front driver's tire in about 7 hours. Worn to the belts from new kind of destruction. We're running about -3/4* negative camber on each side and neutral-ish toe. NEED MOAR CAMBER
-034 LWFW didn't arrive on time to make it onto the car

The ugly:
-That exhaust I fabbed up in the last 24h before the race hung hella low. Thankfully, it only fell off once during the race, costing us about 15 minutes of track time

The pictures!!!:
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RE: the diff locks,
The initial plan was to lock the center diff and have 1 wheel front/1 wheel rear putting power to the ground. As an experiment, I locked both center and rear. HOLY GRIP! Braking ability was greatly increased, as was ability to get on the power earlier. Had it rained AT ALL, we would have DOMINATED

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 Post subject: Re: 1987 Quantum Syncro AAN swap / 24 Hours of Lemons insani
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 2:52 pm 
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Chirping second

Joined: Wed May 15, 2013 11:27 am
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oh, and we didn't have a radiator fan (no room). not a big deal until we stopped moving and the car would boil over. kinda like an F1 car, right? fixed by adding 6oz of water wetter.

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 Post subject: Re: 1987 Quantum Syncro AAN swap / 24 Hours of Lemons insani
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 3:13 pm 
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Chirping second

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Location: aurora, il
one last thing... here's my old car:
Image

you can view the full gallery here: http://www.murileemartin.com/UG/LWI13/LWI13.html

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 Post subject: Re: 1987 Quantum Syncro AAN swap / 24 Hours of Lemons insani
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 6:42 pm 
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That's pretty badass. If you're ever short a driver drop me a line, would be nice to drive a turbo QSW again.

As for negative camber, yeah, it sucks. And yeah, front tires wear out like crazy. I was going to make some offset delrin control arm bushings for mine, never got around to it, delrin is easy to find free :wink:, just need some time on a lathe to make them. Since it's Lemons, you could also chop/reweld the bottom of the strut, but that always seemed more risky than I wanted to do. If you stopped kicking ass and got some more allowance money, you could upgrade to 2 piece struts in the front and use crash bolts.

The rear end has a passive rear steer mechanism built in that promotes understeer. The subframe bushings are soft in one direction and allow massive toe in during hard cornering. You may experiment with filling these with JB weld, making solid mounts, etc. Don't know what it will do but I always wanted to try.

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 Post subject: Re: 1987 Quantum Syncro AAN swap / 24 Hours of Lemons insani
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 9:00 pm 
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Is the passive rear steer something that the Audi B2q had as well?

Eric

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 Post subject: Re: 1987 Quantum Syncro AAN swap / 24 Hours of Lemons insani
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 9:28 pm 
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derekste wrote:
-034 street density motor and trans mounts worked GREAT! we ran without a snub mount (mostly due to huge radiator and intercooler) and had about 1/2" of clearance between the crank pulley and intercooler. Engine didn't budge at all.

I don't believe you. :wtf:

Glad to hear it ran without any issues!

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 Post subject: Re: 1987 Quantum Syncro AAN swap / 24 Hours of Lemons insani
PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 10:28 am 
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How did you lock the center and rear diff?

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 Post subject: Re: 1987 Quantum Syncro AAN swap / 24 Hours of Lemons insani
PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 10:55 am 
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Chirping second

Joined: Wed May 15, 2013 11:27 am
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Location: aurora, il
man I wish I could multi-quote on this forum...

mdg3369: shoot me an email! derekste [at] gmail [dot] com. Next race is 2014/4/19 @ Gingerman raceway- would love to have someone who is experienced with these rare birds. anyone else in the midwest who would be interested, please feel free to contact me.

nismo: yeah I'd like to hear more from mdg3369 about this setup. I will say that I had some pretty epic AWD drifts, when the car was making good power

pilihp2: to be honest I was a bit skeptical of running on 4 out of 5 "street" level mounts, but it seems to have worked out well. i opted for street density because (a) driver comfort IS a factor in endurance racing and because (b) I feel it's good to have a little "slop" in the system. we did have a broken OE mount at the end of the June race and I didn't check for this, but would be surprised if I found it.

fundahl: since I am still running the 016 drivetrain, I just pulled out the diff lock knob 2 clicks.

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 Post subject: Re: 1987 Quantum Syncro AAN swap / 24 Hours of Lemons insani
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 9:45 am 
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Chirping second

Joined: Wed May 15, 2013 11:27 am
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Location: aurora, il
bump back from the dead.

I sold this car, new owner blew it up (stupid plastic water neck on the back of the head disintegrated on his first time out, LOL)

I then bought a semi-sketchy (and expensive) AAN motor from F5 out on the east coast... and blew that up really quick last summer at the Corvette Museum in Kentucky. (This may have been partially our fault).

AANs are too damn expensive and rare for us to keep blowing up. The car is back in my stewardship and I am trying to buy a 97 A8 so we can swap the 4.2 in.

No major questions at this point, but I'm sure I'll have some in the next 6 months.

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 Post subject: Re: 1987 Quantum Syncro AAN swap / 24 Hours of Lemons insani
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 11:16 am 
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Awesome! Props for not giving up. Post some pics of the car sometime.

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 Post subject: Re: 1987 Quantum Syncro AAN swap / 24 Hours of Lemons insani
PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2018 3:09 pm 
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Have you considered a 7A? We run a 90q20v and it is exceedingly reliable, probably because it's essentially a turbo without the turbo. I think we have 16 races of 16-24 hours duration on this engine since 2008, and it had > 200K miles when we started. Power isn't tremendous, but it happens mostly in the right RPM range for racing, and you can make a few tweaks (e.g. big MAF) to help. Plus it's a pretty easy install given the AAN, and generally cheap.

Eric
Team Unintended Acceleration 90q20v "Raging Inferno"


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 Post subject: Re: 1987 Quantum Syncro AAN swap / 24 Hours of Lemons insani
PostPosted: Mon Jan 20, 2020 4:54 pm 
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Fuck my life we're on our third AAN (long story) - third time's a charm though, right?

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 Post subject: Re: 1987 Quantum Syncro AAN swap / 24 Hours of Lemons insani
PostPosted: Mon Jan 20, 2020 4:55 pm 
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ejfluhr wrote:
Have you considered a 7A? We run a 90q20v and it is exceedingly reliable, probably because it's essentially a turbo without the turbo. I think we have 16 races of 16-24 hours duration on this engine since 2008, and it had > 200K miles when we started. Power isn't tremendous, but it happens mostly in the right RPM range for racing, and you can make a few tweaks (e.g. big MAF) to help. Plus it's a pretty easy install given the AAN, and generally cheap.

Eric
Team Unintended Acceleration 90q20v "Raging Inferno"


you guys still racing Lemons?

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 Post subject: Re: 1987 Quantum Syncro AAN swap / 24 Hours of Lemons insani
PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 11:57 pm 
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Yes, but in ChumpCar/ChampCar the last 8 years. The 90q20v w/ 7A is a durable machine; not terribly fast, but we have never DNF'ed a race. Best finish was 6th place overall out of 40+ cars. We are currently building a replacement motor to run at Circuit of the Americas this summer.

Current car #456:
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Prior car #444, RIP:
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 Post subject: Re: 1987 Quantum Syncro AAN swap / 24 Hours of Lemons insani
PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2020 9:32 am 
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The car runs and drives on engine #3!

I swapped the rear suspension out to Mk1 Rabbit GTI parts... much better (lowered the rear 3")

The gearing in this thing (stock 016 QSW) is shorter than I remember, boy does it rip.

Here are some pictures! :pics: :woowoo: 8)

Too bad our first race of the season (Autobahn, Joliet IL) was cancelled.


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 Post subject: Re: 1987 Quantum Syncro AAN swap / 24 Hours of Lemons insani
PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2020 5:51 pm 
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Hells yea love it!

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 Post subject: Re: 1987 Quantum Syncro AAN swap / 24 Hours of Lemons insani
PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2020 10:06 pm 
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Nice pics, car looks good. I like the theme! Bummer to hear your race was canceled; our COTA race is scheduled for late June and we are currently holding out hope that it will continue.

Do you run 4x100 or 4x108 wheels? I like those rims; we've struggled keeping good sets of 15x7" 4x108 rims.

Cheers, Eric


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 Post subject: Re: 1987 Quantum Syncro AAN swap / 24 Hours of Lemons insani
PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2020 4:36 pm 
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love the rear plate area message

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 Post subject: Re: 1987 Quantum Syncro AAN swap / 24 Hours of Lemons insani
PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2020 1:07 pm 
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@jlw - thanks!

@ejfluhr - thanks! not bad for having sat outside for 2 years, eh?? :) we run 4x100 since that's what the QSW came with stock. these are Kosei K1s in +25 offset (BMW E30 fitment)- they're relatively light, strong, & "cheap" plus they're readily available from tire rack !

@88a5tq - thanks! I can't take credit for any of the decorations, but the first time this car raced under its new owner (Oct 2016) is when the car's theme (Quantum Leap + Idiocracy) involved an alternative parallel universe where Trump became president.... if only we had known then! :frustrated: I plan on adding some Hardees and Brawndo decals before it is raced again.

other thoughts: car drives well, but as I mentioned the gearing is wayyy too short. car is gear limited to 118mph at approximately 7500 RPM. while 118mph is plenty fast, you're literally driving between 4000RPM-8K all the time. I have an 01e out of a UrS4 but that's not a bolt in affair by any means, and think I would be best sourcing a 200 Avant 016. anyone have any thoughts?

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 Post subject: Re: 1987 Quantum Syncro AAN swap / 24 Hours of Lemons insani
PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2020 10:18 pm 
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The QSW uses a late-4Kq 016 with 4.11 final drive? Then you are correct that a 200 20v 016 is your best option. Of course, you lose lockable center diff in trade for Torsen center; hopefully no insect-inspired arguments ensue from this...

I assume you've studied derracuda's most excellent reference: https://www.motorgeek.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=8293

Cheers, Eric


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