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Eurotrash Motorsports: B4 20VTQ Avant - Holset time...

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 Post subject: Re: B4 Avant - 2.0E to 2.2T - fwd to quattro?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 5:57 pm 
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I think Billay is referring to the B4 cars and believe he is right.
Besides, although B3 and B4 are not the same, the rear of B3 and B4 is VERY similar.

There is a reason why all cars with Quattro drive in Europe formally had manufacturer name: Quattro GmbH on the papers.
That's changed now.

In would not go into this swap too lightheartedly. I am all for it though.
I think you might have to cut out the rear bottom of the donor and weld it in.

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 Post subject: Re: B4 Avant - 2.0E to 2.2T - fwd to quattro?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 8:07 pm 
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Jiggle_Billy wrote:
I've looked into doing the swap myself. The floor pan is a different animal from up by the driver's seat all of the way back to the spare tire well. I parked my 88 80Q next to my 90 FWD and found that pretty much only the rear strut bearings are the same part #. The swap also requires cutting and replacing the inner fender (on B4 cars) to make way for the upper control arm, and re-doing some of the mounts below for the lower control arms because of the solid rear axle making way for independent rear.


an 88 80Q is a B3 and depending on the year a 90 FWD would be a B4...as far as I know (I don't have a b3 to confirm) the rear end on B3 and B4s is very different (as per Billy's post)...that's not exactly the case for B4 vs B4...I`ll try to drop both rear ends over the weekend and take pictures...

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2006 B7 2.0TDi Avant quattro - powered by Holset
1993 B4 20VT Avant quattro - powered by Holset


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 Post subject: Re: B4 Avant - 2.0E to 2.2T - fwd to quattro?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 8:28 pm 
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meanwhile...here's a few questions for you folks...

1. does the V6 tranny mount to the 4 cyl?
2. an 01E off a B5 will (should) mount to the 4 cyl - is it the same length as the V6?

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1993 B4 20VT Avant quattro - powered by Holset


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 Post subject: Re: B4 Avant - 2.0E to 2.2T - fwd to quattro?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 12:26 am 
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1. Yes
2. Yes and no 01E is longer than 01A (from v6)

And one more thing B3 and B4 cars have totally different rear suspension on quattro and fwd versions. B4 has almost same suspension like b5 on fwd and quattro versions...

Looking forward to see your findings after rear suspension removal on fwd and quattro B4...


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 Post subject: Re: B4 Avant - 2.0E to 2.2T - fwd to quattro?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 3:20 am 
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thanks for the info....follow up questions...

1. how would the gearing of the 01A from the V6 be for the 4 cyl? it can't be worse that it already is....
2. so if I was to use the 01E then I'd have to source out a driveshaft off a B5?

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 Post subject: Re: B4 Avant - 2.0E to 2.2T - fwd to quattro?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 3:44 am 
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1. I got a file about this a while ago.
Its got some VR6 info, too which irrelevant, but you might like the gearing charts.


Attachments:
CCF.CGT.CAC.doc [189 KiB]
Downloaded 95 times

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 Post subject: Re: B4 Avant - 2.0E to 2.2T - fwd to quattro?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 5:19 am 
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sweet info...let's see if I can summarize it here...

we're dealing with the 2.0 E – 85 kW (116 PS; 114 bhp), in-line four-cylinder engine...

CCF CAC
Engine 2.0 ltr - 85 kW 2.8 ltr - 128 kW
Final drive 37 : 9 = 4.111 37 : 10 = 3.700
1st gear 39 : 11 = 3.545 35 : 10 = 3.500
2nd gear 40 : 19 = 2.105 35 : 19 = 1.842
3rd gear 40 : 28 = 1.429 39 : 30 = 1.300

4th gear 35 : 34 = 1.029 35 : 34 = 1.029
5th gear 31 : 37 = 0.838 31 : 37 = 0.838
Reverse gear 35 : 10 = 3.500 31 : 9 = 3.444

considering I spend most of my time in 2nd and 3rd they're the ones that are most important...correct me if I'm wrong - a lower ratio means shorter gears?

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 Post subject: Re: B4 Avant - 2.0E to 2.2T - fwd to quattro?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 5:52 am 
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Erm, yes, but keep in mind that these are all FWD trannies.
IIRC the V6Q tranny has a 4.11 or 3.89 final drive.

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95 Audi 80 converted to Quattro + AEB.


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 Post subject: Re: B4 Avant - 2.0E to 2.2T - fwd to quattro?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 7:22 am 
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ChrisAudi80 wrote:
Erm, yes, but keep in mind that these are all FWD trannies.
IIRC the V6Q tranny has a 4.11 or 3.89 final drive.


Correct the 01A was available in 4.11 or 3.89 final

A lower final drive number does not mean shorter gears. It means longer. IE 4.11 would be "shorter" than the 3.89 final.

Same applies for dividing the ratio for the actual transmission gears. a 2.105 Ratio is going to be "shorter" than a 1.842 (looking at a 40:19 type of number just confuses me)

If you are really that concerned about your gearing, find a gearing calculator online and start plugging in numbers. It should give you your top speeds in each gear and takes into consideration tire size etc.

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 Post subject: Re: B4 Avant - 2.0E to 2.2T - fwd to quattro?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 7:42 am 
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assuming the final drive is the diff ratio and based on a 205/50/15 Falken Azenis RT-615k I use for the track (yes I know - small) this is what I`m getting:

CCF:
1st Gear = 47.7 km/h
2nd Gear = 80.34 km/h
3rd Gear = 118.34 km/h
4th Gear = 164.34 km/h
5th Gear = 201.8 km/h

CAC (4.11 final)
1st Gear = 46.04 km/h
2nd Gear = 87.48 km/h
3rd Gear = 123.95 km/h
4th Gear = 156.59 km/h
5th Gear = 192.28 km/h

CAC (3.89)
1st Gear = 48.65 km/h
2nd Gear = 92.45 km/h
3rd Gear = 130.99 km/h
4th Gear = 165.49 km/h
5th Gear = 203.21 km/h

make sense? here's the problem I'm having with the 4cyl tranny - I max 2nd too early and 3rd comes in too low...now the maxing of 2nd will clearly be fixed with a 3.89 final ratio as the max speed is up another 10km/h...not sure if it's enough but it's better...not sure what's up with 3rd gear though - the car has no power when I upshift to third...does it make sense that if 2nd is longer, upshifting will position me better on the torque curve? for the purposes I use the car for (read - no daily use) ideally I want a close ratio transmission correct?

for example when I swapped my 1.8t into my old 2.0 8v and used the 2.0 tranny the car felt very different...gear changes were faster and the fifth gear held the car in high rpms - not ideal for daily use but very fun on the track...I am guessing a TDi transmission would be even better for that...if I'm understanding this right that means the 2.0 tranny had higher gear ratios and therefore shorter gears

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2006 B7 2.0TDi Avant quattro - powered by Holset
1993 B4 20VT Avant quattro - powered by Holset


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 Post subject: Re: B4 Avant - 2.0E to 2.2T - fwd to quattro?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 7:50 am 
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courtesy of http://www.fatboyraceworks.com/

Image

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 Post subject: Re: B4 Avant - 2.0E to 2.2T - fwd to quattro?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 8:18 am 
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Btw, you don't want to use the 4 cyl FWD tranny with the AAN, if you decided to stay FWD. The CVs and flanges won't handle the TQ. If you check the file you will see that all CV flanges mentioned are 100mm dia. The V6 flanges are 130mm.

If you stay FWD, try getting a CAC 3.89 and step up to 225/45/17 or something. The V6 FWD topped out at 235kmh. Mine did anyway. That was approx 6200 or so.

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95 Audi 80 converted to Quattro + AEB.


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 Post subject: Re: B4 Avant - 2.0E to 2.2T - fwd to quattro?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 8:26 am 
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hmmm...FWD plan was to get an 01E off a FWD passat (1.8t)...that should easily handle the loads...

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1993 B4 20VT Avant quattro - powered by Holset


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 Post subject: Re: B4 Avant - 2.0E to 2.2T - fwd to quattro?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 8:28 am 
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NiTeC wrote:
Jiggle_Billy wrote:
I've looked into doing the swap myself. The floor pan is a different animal from up by the driver's seat all of the way back to the spare tire well. I parked my 88 80Q next to my 90 FWD and found that pretty much only the rear strut bearings are the same part #. The swap also requires cutting and replacing the inner fender (on B4 cars) to make way for the upper control arm, and re-doing some of the mounts below for the lower control arms because of the solid rear axle making way for independent rear.


an 88 80Q is a B3 and depending on the year a 90 FWD would be a B4...as far as I know (I don't have a b3 to confirm) the rear end on B3 and B4s is very different (as per Billy's post)...that's not exactly the case for B4 vs B4...I`ll try to drop both rear ends over the weekend and take pictures...


I used that as an example (a poor one, but an example)

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1989 200tq 192whp/247tq @14psi on CIS w/stock 10vt IC, stock turbo---*sold*
1989 200tq Avant K26/T04E 50 trim/AWIC/034 SIC...still CIS
1990 Audi 90 FWD ABZ tire melter.....in progress


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 Post subject: Re: B4 Avant - 2.0E to 2.2T - fwd to quattro?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 8:31 am 
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NiTeC wrote:
hmmm...FWD plan was to get an 01E off a FWD passat (1.8t)...that should easily handle the loads...


That is an 012. The 01E FWD was found most often in TDI cars, and were all 6-speed. There are some 1.8t/2.0t cars with a FWD 6-speed, but that was an 01X (basically a Porsche boxster S trans)

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1989 200tq 192whp/247tq @14psi on CIS w/stock 10vt IC, stock turbo---*sold*
1989 200tq Avant K26/T04E 50 trim/AWIC/034 SIC...still CIS
1990 Audi 90 FWD ABZ tire melter.....in progress


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 Post subject: Re: B4 Avant - 2.0E to 2.2T - fwd to quattro?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 8:40 am 
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hmmm...so what you're saying is if I have access to a boxster tranny I can use it? I don't imagine the bellhousing or flanges will match up?

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1993 B4 20VT Avant quattro - powered by Holset


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 Post subject: Re: B4 Avant - 2.0E to 2.2T - fwd to quattro?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 9:02 am 
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They were selling reman 6-speeds from VW for $499 for a while, but they appear to have sold out.

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1989 200tq 192whp/247tq @14psi on CIS w/stock 10vt IC, stock turbo---*sold*
1989 200tq Avant K26/T04E 50 trim/AWIC/034 SIC...still CIS
1990 Audi 90 FWD ABZ tire melter.....in progress


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 Post subject: Re: B4 Avant - 2.0E to 2.2T - fwd to quattro?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 9:11 am 
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Jiggle_Billy wrote:
NiTeC wrote:
hmmm...FWD plan was to get an 01E off a FWD passat (1.8t)...that should easily handle the loads...


The 01E FWD was found most often in TDI cars, and were all 6-speed.

NiTec, get that one. Better gearing. If you can find a LSD (Quaife?) or something similar, you will have better traction at least. You won't have the Quattro conversion headaches.

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 Post subject: Re: B4 Avant - 2.0E to 2.2T - fwd to quattro?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 9:22 am 
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Eh.... I say run some events and save the cash for entry fees and tires.

Here is a discussion on the VW FWD boxes currently going on over at the anarchy. Also, other than targa, are you going to be running mostly gravel? in that case, just weld the differential.
http://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?5,50036

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 Post subject: Re: B4 Avant - 2.0E to 2.2T - fwd to quattro?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 9:34 am 
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ChrisAudi80 wrote:
Jiggle_Billy wrote:
NiTeC wrote:
hmmm...FWD plan was to get an 01E off a FWD passat (1.8t)...that should easily handle the loads...


The 01E FWD was found most often in TDI cars, and were all 6-speed.

NiTec, get that one. Better gearing. If you can find a LSD (Quaife?) or something similar, you will have better traction at least. You won't have the Quattro conversion headaches.



The TDI gearing is garbage for a turbo gasser, even worse if one was to run an OEM KKK Turbo.

Get an 012 from a passat for dirt cheap, then toss an LSD in it. (I have a quaife for sale too :wink: )

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1989 200tq 192whp/247tq @14psi on CIS w/stock 10vt IC, stock turbo---*sold*
1989 200tq Avant K26/T04E 50 trim/AWIC/034 SIC...still CIS
1990 Audi 90 FWD ABZ tire melter.....in progress


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 Post subject: Re: B4 Avant - 2.0E to 2.2T - fwd to quattro?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 9:41 am 
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quite frankly with the amount of work and money that has/is going into this car and how rare it will end up being I doubt I`ll ever run a real rally event with it...it would be a shame to wrap it around a tree...I think I`ll end up using it for track or enter a Touring class...plenty of cars out there that can be converted for actual rally use....I still have the gutted B5 waiting for it's cage...trouble is both cars are way too nice :(

Chris - I have no access to 6spd TDi...no such thing made it over the pond....

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2006 B7 2.0TDi Avant quattro - powered by Holset
1993 B4 20VT Avant quattro - powered by Holset


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 Post subject: Re: B4 Avant - 2.0E to 2.2T - fwd to quattro?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 9:50 am 
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Well Billay just told that my advice was junk. So, do what you feel is best.

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95 Audi 80 converted to Quattro + AEB.


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 Post subject: Re: B4 Avant - 2.0E to 2.2T - fwd to quattro?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 9:56 am 
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ChrisAudi80 wrote:
Well Billay just told that my advice was junk. So, do what you feel is best.


They are strong boxes. The ratios just aren't the best, unless you're doing the texas flying mile.

If Scottmandu chimes in here, he'll be more able to clear things up....

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1989 200tq 192whp/247tq @14psi on CIS w/stock 10vt IC, stock turbo---*sold*
1989 200tq Avant K26/T04E 50 trim/AWIC/034 SIC...still CIS
1990 Audi 90 FWD ABZ tire melter.....in progress


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 Post subject: Re: B4 Avant - 2.0E to 2.2T - fwd to quattro?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 10:23 am 
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NiTeC wrote:
quite frankly with the amount of work and money that has/is going into this car and how rare it will end up being I doubt I`ll ever run a real rally event with it...it would be a shame to wrap it around a tree...I think I`ll end up using it for track or enter a Touring class...plenty of cars out there that can be converted for actual rally use....I still have the gutted B5 waiting for it's cage...trouble is both cars are way too nice :(

Chris - I have no access to 6spd TDi...no such thing made it over the pond....


It's the same amount of work that goes into any race car. Don't turn it into a showpiece, beat the piss outa it, drive within your limits. It may be rare, but it's still not worth much more than $4,500 as it sits.

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 Post subject: Re: B4 Avant - 2.0E to 2.2T - fwd to quattro?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 10:34 am 
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true that...but you can't apply a monetary value to something that's not for sale....the car's 'worth' is a subjective quantity - for example I am part of the car's history and one way or another I am responsible for it still being 'alive'...forget the actual work on the car - even the time it took me to get it insured makes it priceless to me...call it sentimental value if you want...

that b4 sedan next to it - couldn't care less :)

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1993 B4 20VT Avant quattro - powered by Holset


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