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V6 12v specs

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2010 12:02 pm 
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Tomis wrote:
Sorry VR6 is my next future project which is my dreams only. Thats vy vhen I see something like V6, in my mind it pops out like VR. :bashtard:
lol I do that too BTDT many times, we as a community should change the name of one or the other. For instance; my brothers name is Ian, he has a friend named Ian as well :P . They lived together for a while so my brothers friends GF started calling my brother 'Fred' hehe. I vote we call the VR6 'Fred' from now on.

Anywho, back to talking about Audi V6's and how doing anything other than a turbo or supercgharger cost losts of money and doesn't yield a lot of HP in comparison :-D ...

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2010 1:15 pm 
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Thanks for the link. I've been all over 12v.org and never saw that.
When I'm dont with the other head I'll cc the combustion chambers. I WISH I could find a flow bench as I'd love to see how accurate/consistent my porting work was from cyl to cyl. My port openings are obviously the same but I'm hoping my volumes are within 5% of each other. When you remove that much material its hard to gauge. One of the guys at Mondello told me in the future to do all ports at the same time and work from rough to fine in equal times on each port. Pressure applied has a lot to do with it too but it does seem to help. I didn't do all 6 ports at once though. I did one head and then the other, but tried to do all 3 ports on one head at the same time.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2010 5:55 pm 
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dont worry about anal accuracy. as far as porting is concerned the factory ports in the head are quite good vs the 10v. i know bla bla bla they are "so similar" but they are also VERY different at the same time. the 12v has a much steeper approach angle to the valve meaning a whole hell lot less turning and restricting that the air has to do to get into the cylinder.

if you have some time i would order new valve guides and taper the new valve guides or shorten them so that they block less airflow into the motor too, press them in and bam instantly more airflow for nearly no cost.

the real key is to look at the inner radius of the bend from the port to the valve seat run your finger on that area and feel for casting and cutting inconsistancies or burs, get it all nice and smooth.

open up the exhaust side too, get your exhaust gaskets and first mount them to the head and trace and cut, then mount them to the manifolds and WOW another audi accountant port job eh? cut that manifold to match the gasket and double check fitting on both the head and the manifold again.

make sure you get everything all cleaned up, the exhaust is the more restrictive side on the 2v motors and it needs to be able to FLOW

next do not forget to port match the intake manifold to the heads too... a quicker rough job can do it here.

the rest of the intake manifold isnt so bad, and you can usually let it slide.

there is no need for anal precision like mance did on his, you can do a "russian" style job and get very VERY good results out of this engine. ( the russian reference is to the russian space industry... do just good enough for what works, ie welds on some space craft structures look like total shit but do the job... but then where it is needed their welding was superior to american space craft, eg the cooling tubes on the engines nozzles. and lastly the pencil vs the million dollar american space pen)

anywho its too easy to spend time looking for precision where it isnt needed. just get it flowing smoothly and let the rest of the engineering do its stuff.

once you are there your pretty much done

the throttle body bore mod is pretty easy to accomplish via a hole saw carefully guided and a matching peice of exhaust tubing jb welded into place. this however IS a job for a drill press, better to get a spare throttle body and do it on that than risk your only throttle body to damage.

dont forget to clean out your EGR ports in the manifold and install the bigger maf if you have an earlier small maf (4 wire). just change over the sensors from the mafs and you have no fancy wiring to do. just knock out the tamper plug and adjust the idle mixture and boo yah.

i have done several tests on my car and after this you should easily be hitting 190hp if not more.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2010 7:40 pm 
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I agree with all you say, but the IM does require a little attention inside.

The ports to the long runners have sharp casting flash edges. These could be easily ground flush with the runner. Taking out the the throttle blades is very tricky and you really need to know what you are doing.

190Chp or 190Whp? You can get 190Chp with just a chip tune.
How is your V6 work coming?

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2010 7:55 pm 
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How about a set of itb's?


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2010 8:26 pm 
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Nah. The strong points of the V6 would be gone and it would be very difficult to run.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 12:46 pm 
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Hey guys,

Apologies for disappearing for so long. But I’m back and I have plenty to share and question.
Since I was last here I’ve hit a huge doe that mangled my 90q.. That was last year somewhere in November.
At that point I was in the process of taking a 5 cyl 10v turbo out of a '88 5000 quattro with just axles and driveshaft left to remove.
I hit a doe around 1am coming back from work and was stuck repairing it for most of the winter.
Damages were pretty bad (as you'll see in the pictures) power steering pulley was bent timing belt was ruined and about 5 teeth (trying to remember) skipped on left side camshaft...
Long story short I had to do the timing belt and power steering pump, hood, bumper, headlights, radiator support and some more
(don’t shred me on not doing the water pump and all while replacing the timing belt, I was running a high tab already and it was holiday season + plans for the 5 cyl made me try to get away cheap..)
Straightening out some pieces with a pair of pliers and a hammer and piecing the car back together
Also upgraded to a Euro CQ front bumper (came with tags from England)

Drove it for the winter ran great then made a trip to FL over spring break.... and melted a just replaced wheel bearing in the back in Savannah GA (not a bad spot to break down during St. Patty's weekend)... but that’s another story for later lol

as of now besides the repairs on the front end I changed my suspension to B&G spring all the way around KYB GR-2 shock up front and B5 S4 shocks in the back (another funny story) new ball joints, new tie rod ends, new sway bar links, new rotors (machined before installed) with new ?Red? Stuff pads new tires and some other stuff I think..
Handles pretty nice :D


And now the questions:
Windows and sunroof stopped working totally where as it used to work from time to time whenever the red illumination lights were on, also shortly before that my central locks stopped working.
I’ve searched lots of threads, checked the 363 relay - soldering not burned off, checked the thermal fuse - good.

My sunroof is stuck open and with the sun full throttle it’s a hot tub time machine with windows up...
Any ideas where should I start? Grab an Ohm meter n test every wire... I hope that’s the last option I won’t have to use.

Here are the pics for the story:


Attachments:
File comment: THE doe
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File comment: did i mention a 2.7tt swapped B5 6spd? we did 2 timing belts that morning 30 degrees... very cold
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File comment: joy of quattro on the snowy back roads
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 Post subject: Re: V6 12v specs
PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 1:10 pm 
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ohh

and that the first start video:

http://youtu.be/4VeAop54bdI

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 7:27 pm 
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Read entire thread. Do you have engine apart?
Improved breathing on a NA is where you should focus. Have the 034 Big MAF (76.4 mm dia.) chip, 4 wheel dyno tune, 034 injector upgrade in a 7A and it is WONDERFULL! Do it if you can. Start calculating circular areas of everything in inlet/exhaust paths. Found restriction in air cleaner box and 7A TB. Preserve paper air cleaner element if you can... Low restriction, efficient screen. Any 90 deg sharp turn reduces flow by >25%
Great photos by zarati and a nice surface finish/gasket match in the "after" shot. See the space between valve seats? You can build this head to BREATHE... Limited only by valve head getting too close to cylinder wall. Race head specialist can install oversized Ampco 45 seats so large they touch! Use Ferrea Honda racing valves and custom Ampco 45 guides (Audi OD/Honda 5.5 mm ID) in diameter to match your oversizing. Stems must be cut to length with keeper grooves located to match your OEM stem length. Measure area ratio of Audi OEM Ex seat at top (small seat ID) and compare to dia at bottom of seat. If you keep Audi Ex valve/seats, RATIO (taper) should not exceed 10%. Audi is notorious for choking Ex flow with extreme taper (this critical section is the exhaust seat "throat").
Compare OD of Ex valve to In valve. Compute circular areas, determine ratio. A typical ratio is 133% (larger In). If budget limits mods, consider increasing In/Ex ratio to 155-160% for NA HP boost. If you go bigger on Ex dia, HP boost is disproportionate to the increase in fuel consumed (and added costs). Stay with stock valve springs but measure/match seat pressure @ installed height, learn how to hand select/reject bad springs. Use titanium retainers. For 5.5 mm Ferrea stems, modify Honda units to fit Audi double springs. This will extend upper RPM limit w/safety.
Have done two 20V heads with all above mods and more. For Turbo, above approach is all wrong. Look for cam from Eurospec Motorsports, Overland Parts Express, etc till you find one. Build larger exhaust system from head to tailpipe. Use bends that have been drawn-over mandrel (DOM). Pick new tube diameter to increase ID circular area at least 12-16%.
R.V. Morse in Orange, CA can oversize your TB. I enlarged a 7A 11% with his help and is super effective mod. Can you replicate front crank damper in alum? Check for external balance... 7A weighs 11.25 lbs, replica is 1.25 lb! Made 2nd with 6% underdrive.
Good luck!
Phil Cowan
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 5:00 am 
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Phil, he is running a V6, but I agree with all your mod suggestions. The only things he would not be able to use is the chip you have. I suggested a while ago that 034 should do a AAH version of the 7A big MAF kit. The early AAHs have the same MAF and I think TB as well.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 8:19 am 
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Thanks a lot for the input Phil and Chris!
But while I was in the process of restoring my B4 I came across the 5 cyl donors so my project took a different path. Although I like the 12v v6, the power and sound of a 10v turbo is just amazing. Memories of the 5000 tq I owned prior to this 90q and experience of 2 83 UrQs wx 2.1 made me go for a swap. Even though it prolly will not be rebuilt n mounted to the car till next summer it is very exciting.

The problem I am facing as of now is the not working windows and sunroof... that prevented me from taking the B4 up to Saranac Lake and Lake Placid. So I'm stuck driving a Ranger through those fun twisties :(

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 3:32 pm 
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has anyone ever rebuilt the 12v V6?
since its out of my engine bay and in the garage id like to rebuild it, anyone has any sugestions, list of tools, list of parts needed, pictures etc.
thanks in advance

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 7:00 pm 
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padwalz wrote:
has anyone ever rebuilt the 12v V6?
since its out of my engine bay and in the garage id like to rebuild it, anyone has any sugestions, list of tools, list of parts needed, pictures etc.
thanks in advance

There is a thread here somewhere by zarati , IIRC.

There is also one on S2forum.com

You will need all the gaskets and preferably all new bearings. The cam locking tool would be good to have, I read.
Read up on the IM & heads workshops by Mance Etheridge. They are hosted somewhere on the 12.org website.
EDIGREG has all the links somewhere.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 12:47 am 
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just beat the daylights out of it, it take a shit load of abuse to kill it and no upgrade is worth it. My old 12v blew a coolant hose when i thought the car was done while on a ski trip, said fawk it driving home. Went from white smoke to black smoke to no smoke, 65 miles later replaced the hose, topped off the coolant, changed the oil and nothing changed. Ur going to bust ur ass making minute upgrades, the valley pan will piss oil all day long even if you change it. Just beat on it


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 9:05 pm 
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ChrisAudi80 wrote:
padwalz wrote:
has anyone ever rebuilt the 12v V6?
since its out of my engine bay and in the garage id like to rebuild it, anyone has any sugestions, list of tools, list of parts needed, pictures etc.
thanks in advance

There is a thread here somewhere by zarati , IIRC.

There is also one on S2forum.com

You will need all the gaskets and preferably all new bearings. The cam locking tool would be good to have, I read.
Read up on the IM & heads workshops by Mance Etheridge. They are hosted somewhere on the 12.org website.
EDIGREG has all the links somewhere.


thanks! ill def try to dig it up
ive got the links to Mances work (amazing)

Quote:

just beat the daylights out of it, it take a shit load of abuse to kill it and no upgrade is worth it. My old 12v blew a coolant hose when i thought the car was done while on a ski trip, said fawk it driving home. Went from white smoke to black smoke to no smoke, 65 miles later replaced the hose, topped off the coolant, changed the oil and nothing changed. Ur going to bust ur ass making minute upgrades, the valley pan will piss oil all day long even if you change it. Just beat on it



I already did and its awesome 200,000 miles (got it at 140,000miles) and that thing still screams!! the engine has only failed me once - when the cam sensor failed.
I'm in the process of finishing my 1.8t swap and now i have the 12v sitting around. I'd like to rebuild and put it in another C4 or C4 chassis and have a solid daily, not a racecar.
Just trying to see if i can find a write up, list of parts etc.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 9:16 pm 
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honestly if you are swapping it id do a 7A or some other 2.2 its simpler, way better on the oil pissing, and fits and can be had for change as well


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 7:13 am 
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i already have the AEB mounted and im finishing it all up and i couldnt find any reasonable 5 cyls near me

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=45494

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 26, 2021 3:02 pm 
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the_natrix wrote:

here is the problem. megasquirt and megasquirt2 do not have enough inputs outputs to PROPERLY support this motor.

you need 6 injector drivers, 3 ignition channels, atleast one crank input, 2 more gp outputs for the changeover valve on the intake and idle control valve. megasquirt does not have this.

doing this you lose knock control, cylinder selective adjustments, EGR, EVAP, you reduce your ignition timing resolution too. not to mention you lose the great idle/coldstart/warmup the existing tuning and management provides!

if this was a GM v6 from the early 90's this would be not much of a problem for megasquirt, but it isnt.

You are better keeping the stock management and getting a chip in there. again. mms200 ecu is what you need for that, but thats easy to source from ebay if you know what to look for (audi 100 92 v6).

im all for megasquirt, but it has its limitations. and while you can push the limits on it, it all depends on your technological skills and what sacrafices your willing to make. I personally see to many sacrafices to be made on this motor by installing megasquirt.


Well, this is an old thread but the forum is quiet so I might as well bump it up and see if anyone is watching... I have a '97 B5 A4 with the 12v V6 and found this thread while researching Megasquirt. I've already bought a "DIY" MS2 V3.0 kit, so I'm committed to making the conversion.

I wanted to chime in on a few of the points that The Natrix brought up. Hopefully I am not wrong about this, but here was my understanding of what I can get MS to do for the V6:

MS2 should be good to support two banks of a V6 with batch fire (split by bank) injection. This should be equal to stock, right? I wasn't under the impression that our stock ECU is doing sequential port injection, so no real loss or gain there. I am also planning to run two wideband O2's (which MS2 is supposedly able to do) but am still researching the fine points.

I'll retain the wasted spark ignition by building three channels onto the board, which is supposedly very straightforward. That let's me get rid of the ignition module on top of the airbox which is a win. Do we know the resolution of the stock ignition map? MS2 should be 12x12.

For crank input, I decided the easiest solution is to forego the 12v's complex three-sensor system and simply use a 36-1 trigger wheel and Hall-Effect sensor for accurate crank position. This alone won't let me have sequential port fuel injection or coil on plug ignition (I would need a cam sensor for those) but it's simpler and not a downgrade in any other way, right?

MS2 can handle different idle valves (I believe three types) including stepper and pulse-width modulation. I haven't confirmed yet, but I believe the stock 12v valve is PWM? So that shouldn't be a big challenge.

As for the intake valve changeover, MS2 supposedly has two additional configurable outputs that are unrelated to the idle control outputs, so I should be good to go and could use the second for something like an AC idle boost solenoid if needed?

Regarding knock sensors: MS2 is supposed to have the ability to take a conditioned knock input (KnockSense is a commonly used device) and can retard timing based on that signal. A quick glance at the KnockSense page, and it looks like it can take two sensors (and I assume blends them into a single output). So again, I think this is covered and there's no ultimate loss compared to the stock system?

As for the EGR and EVAP, my car won't need to pass emissions or the OBD2 inspection after next year. I will likely keep the systems in place and may try to piggy-back off some other MS function to activate these when appropriate.

I understand the desire to stay with an OEM system, but the B5's with the Hitachi ECU can't be tuned like the earlier 12v's. The ability to simplify my engine management (Come-on Audi, three engine position sensors!) and tune for my upgrades down the road is very appealing.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2021 5:54 am 
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So a LOT has changed in the Megasquirt world since 2012, so this thread probably isn't the best starting point.

Batch injection with wasted spark should be pretty equivalent to stock and certainly won't be a limiting factor until you're making significant power.

The VR6 doesn't use a complex three sensor system, the old 5cyl do. Use the stock VR6 60-2 crank trigger and cam sync (which you might not even need w/ batch and wasted spark), it's far and away the easiest and best solution here.

All older VW/Audi ISVs are PWM so it's just finding the right settings for the one you're using.

I wouldn't bother with on board knock control with megasquirt but that's just me. It'll be super hard to dial it in enough to be effective/helpful.

Again, neither your B5 or the VR6 use three engine position sensors. All VR6 and B5 use a crank mounted 60-2 which you should just use.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2021 6:12 am 
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Thanks for replying.

So just to clarify, this is for the Audi 12v V6 not the VR6. Now, I have heard some conflicting info about the flywheels, and I haven't split my engine & trans to have a good look at the flywheel that I'm dealing with. Like you say, I've heard that the earlier B5's have a 60-2 trigger wheel, and I see it in some photos. I also have a part number for an I5 20v flywheel that is supposed to have the ring as well. Personally, I am not opposed at all to mounting a 36-1 wheel on the crank pulley, and using the hall sensor from DIY to get my crank position. That would avoid having to deal with making an already expensive clutch setup even more complex.

Here's where I read about the triple sensors: http://www.classic-audi.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=28339

Quoted directly:

"The Hitachi uses the most ridiculous 'triple tach' system for measuring engine speed and TDC location. The 12v V6 shares this system with the 7A 20v Turbo..

It uses one VR (variable reluctor) sensor to measure the ring gear teeth (both V6 and 5 cylinder have 135 teeth)
It uses a second VR sensor to 'see' a dowel pin pressed into the flywheel 62 degrees BTDC
It then uses the third sensor (a hall sensor this time) to monitor the camshaft rotation so that it can work out where the firing cycle is (each cylinder has 2 TDC, for ignition, one exhaust, the cam sensor tells the ECU which is which)

However.. when Audi decided to fit this system to the V6 in a moment of madness they did away with the DTC pin and instead machined a slot in one of the crankshaft counterweights and repositioned the second VR sensor to 'see' it there.."

I can confirm my V6 has the counterweight sensor. I had to pull it to lock the crank for a timing belt job. I also know that I have the cam sensor on the rear of the Driver Side cam. I haven't dug around far enough to find the very elusive VR sensor at the flywheel. And like I said, I haven't split my engine/trans to see if my flywheel has a trigger wheel, or if it simply has that dowel.


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