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V6 12v specs

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 Post subject: V6 12v specs
PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 3:07 pm 
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hey everyone

i was wondering if anyone has or know where i could find some specifications for V6 12v motors? (specificlly AFC)
i've already visited 12v.org and other forums, but i'm looking for specific
dimensions for the heads and the rest of the motor

i'm planning on port n polish the heads and the intake manifold, maybe if i can find some oversized valves n springs

basically trying to see what kind of NA power i can get out of it.
(i know its not a great motor to start messing with, i'd prolly be better of doing a swap but i have some plans for the 12v)

it might be a waste of money after all, but i will try to make the best of it

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 7:04 pm 
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if you do go oversize valves, you can use the kit for the 12v vr6 and have the ends reground to the correct installed height.

do not bother getting new valve seats. the factory valve seats are big enough and can accept a bore diameter increase from a COMPETENT machinist.

the worst part of this motor is the attrocious port matching audi let slip by in the factory. the intake to head is beyond rediculous.

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1988 Audi 5ktq - 10vt Ms&s Extra <- sold then someone killed it.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 7:16 pm 
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awesome!
that helps a lot! :thanks:

do you have any idea what kind of valves i could use to push the rev limiter a bit further?

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1995 Audi 90 quattro - 1.8t swap
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1998 Audi A4 2.8q - all motor rally beast
1992 Nissan Sentra SR20 swap
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 7:26 pm 
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what are your plans or goals?
head work like this is rather costly for sure.
money spent here could get you a long way towards a swap or boost of some sort.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 7:43 pm 
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i have a friend thats going to take care of this part for me
and im not planing on taking of too much, just to even it all out

to do list:
bored MAF & TB
high flowing (no cat and only 1 muffler) exhaust is already in tact
hoping to find some cams (maybe schrick)
megasquirt n maybe some injectors?..

any other suggestions for a slight NA build?

also stiff bushings and subframe/engine/tranny mounts from 034
and B&G springs with KONI shocks
spec clutch n lighter flywheel

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1995 Audi 90 quattro - 1.8t swap
1987 Toyota Supra Turbo Targa Top - Holset powered
1998 Audi A4 2.8q - all motor rally beast
1992 Nissan Sentra SR20 swap
1986 Audi 5000tq - gone...


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 8:00 pm 
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man, do all the suspension, wheel and brake mods you can do.
Save the money on the motor, do a swap, or at least go for a ride in someones car who has.

swap in a VR6t, or 20vt, use stock management and you will love the power.

NA power is very nice, but its really costly to get it to a OK power level, and as soon as you get there you wish you had more.

What are you going to use this car for?

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 8:09 pm 
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daily driver/occasional track event

and i already though about an AEB swap.. almost swapped WX in it... but then the whole deal went south for me, so i figure ill be different and stick to the good ol 12v

i know you think that its going to be a disappointment at the end (power wise), but im not looking for a 700hp monster (id definitely would choose AAN if thats the case), just something to go down the road with some excitment in it :woowoo:

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 8:13 pm 
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thats cool. It is a really nice motor. you could always get the PES SC kit. :wink:

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 8:23 pm 
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thanks

yeh i definitely thought about it but $5k is a lot for supercharger
now if i could only get the modified intake manifold that sits the SC on top of it hehe :bashtard:

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 6:45 am 
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I can give you the links to Mance Etheridge's workshops, if you don't have this. I don't think you need to go quite as anal as he did, but they are educational workshops.

I'd love to do a 12v B4Q NA with full suspension and brake work. Not expecting big power, but there is something about the 12V which I really like.
Which ECU do you have? If the MS300, try to find a MS200 for the AAH.

Another option is to get the billet MAF housing 034 has for their 7A kit. This would massively increase flow.

edit:
Here are the links:
IM Workshop: http://12v.org/audi/imworkshop/

Head Workshop: http://12v.org/audi/headworkshop/

Airbox Workshop: http://12v.org/audi/abworkshop/

Air Filter Comparison: http://12v.org/audi/afcompare/

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 7:24 am 
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Oh, btw, use the AAH cams. A little more aggressive.

Other than that, lose some weight of the car. I think it would be a fun car to drive.
With a custom chip, 200hp should be possible. A buddy of mine in The Netherlands got 191hp JUST with the custom chip and no other work. Measured with a G-Tech.

I got a custom chip in my AAH, too. Did wake the car up :-D
Make sure all the sensors, coils and hoses are good otherwise there is no point.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 11:17 am 
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Porting and Polishing is only expensive if someone else does it for you. If you do it yourself its not so bad.
I have my Dads 12v apart and am in the middle of the process. ONe head is done and other other I'm just starting. I'll post up some pics.

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"Coupes are better than Sedans. Less Door Handles to replace!!!"

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 4:12 pm 
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padwalz wrote:
i have a friend thats going to take care of this part for me
and im not planing on taking of too much, just to even it all out

to do list:
bored MAF & TB
high flowing (no cat and only 1 muffler) exhaust is already in tact
hoping to find some cams (maybe schrick)
megasquirt n maybe some injectors?..

any other suggestions for a slight NA build?

also stiff bushings and subframe/engine/tranny mounts from 034
and B&G springs with KONI shocks
spec clutch n lighter flywheel


do not waste your time on megasquirt for this motor. you have sequential fuel injection and wasted spark ignition with cylinder selective knock sense and bla bla bla bla.

megasquirt CAN work but its too primitive for this motor.

Keep the stock engine management, and either get a chip from 034 or get a FI system that has both sequential injection and injection.

_________________
Nate's Law:
The greater the number of people in the group, the lower the total collective, and individual intelligence of said group becomes.


Audi, imprisoning me, all that i see, absolute horror. I cannot live, i cannot die, trapped in my audi, my audi my holding cell..

1988 Audi 5ktq - 10vt Ms&s Extra <- sold then someone killed it.
1993 Audi 90q - 12vt


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 12:08 am 
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thanks a lot for the info everyone!

im coming back with some questions for u guys:

ChrisAudi80, i have the MS300 and i was planning on getting megasquirt2
and is this what you are talking about? http://www.034motorsport.com/product_in ... s_id=18022
and thanks a lot for the links! im thinking im going to have to do it myself now that i have that

the_natrix, so your saying that megasquirt2 wont be any good for accurate/better tuning of the engine?

zarati, cant wait to see the pics :woowoo:

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1995 Audi 90 quattro - 1.8t swap
1987 Toyota Supra Turbo Targa Top - Holset powered
1998 Audi A4 2.8q - all motor rally beast
1992 Nissan Sentra SR20 swap
1986 Audi 5000tq - gone...


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 1:21 am 
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padwalz wrote:
thanks a lot for the info everyone!

im coming back with some questions for u guys:

ChrisAudi80, i have the MS300 and i was planning on getting megasquirt2
and is this what you are talking about? http://www.034motorsport.com/product_in ... s_id=18022
and thanks a lot for the links! im thinking im going to have to do it myself now that i have that

the_natrix, so your saying that megasquirt2 wont be any good for accurate/better tuning of the engine?

zarati, cant wait to see the pics :woowoo:


Try to find a MS200 ECU. MS2 is no point on this motor.

The MAF housing I was talking about is in this kit:
http://www.034motorsport.com/product_in ... s_id=19845

The intake hose looks good, but will not fit between the V6 TB and firewall.

According to Mance you only have 3.5" of space. There is a bunch of sharp stuff mounted on the firewall which will damage the hose.

What you could use is a 90 degree 3" TIGHT radius hose, but you might as well stick with the stock elbow hose there and go for the billet MAF housing with a straight 3"alu hose from MAF to plastic elbow to TB.

I asked about a possible adaption (or new version) of this V6 chip set with the billet MAF housing, but got no reply from newt.
http://www.034motorsport.com/product_in ... s_id=17549

I will probably get fried for this, but with all the IM and heads grinding, the big MAF, custom chipped MS-200, AAH cams and 2.5"exhaust, it should be possible to get to 210-220hp and a fair bit of torque with snappy response.
:hide:

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95 Audi 80 converted to Quattro + AEB.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 5:51 am 
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padwalz wrote:
thanks a lot for the info everyone!

im coming back with some questions for u guys:

ChrisAudi80, i have the MS300 and i was planning on getting megasquirt2
and is this what you are talking about? http://www.034motorsport.com/product_in ... s_id=18022
and thanks a lot for the links! im thinking im going to have to do it myself now that i have that

the_natrix, so your saying that megasquirt2 wont be any good for accurate/better tuning of the engine?

zarati, cant wait to see the pics :woowoo:


here is the problem. megasquirt and megasquirt2 do not have enough inputs outputs to PROPERLY support this motor.

you need 6 injector drivers, 3 ignition channels, atleast one crank input, 2 more gp outputs for the changeover valve on the intake and idle control valve. megasquirt does not have this.

doing this you lose knock control, cylinder selective adjustments, EGR, EVAP, you reduce your ignition timing resolution too. not to mention you lose the great idle/coldstart/warmup the existing tuning and management provides!

if this was a GM v6 from the early 90's this would be not much of a problem for megasquirt, but it isnt.

You are better keeping the stock management and getting a chip in there. again. mms200 ecu is what you need for that, but thats easy to source from ebay if you know what to look for (audi 100 92 v6).

im all for megasquirt, but it has its limitations. and while you can push the limits on it, it all depends on your technological skills and what sacrafices your willing to make. I personally see to many sacrafices to be made on this motor by installing megasquirt.

_________________
Nate's Law:
The greater the number of people in the group, the lower the total collective, and individual intelligence of said group becomes.


Audi, imprisoning me, all that i see, absolute horror. I cannot live, i cannot die, trapped in my audi, my audi my holding cell..

1988 Audi 5ktq - 10vt Ms&s Extra <- sold then someone killed it.
1993 Audi 90q - 12vt


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 5:59 am 
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:stupid:

Say natrix, how's your V6 project going?

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 10:27 am 
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Above you were talking about porting. I have some pics. You can see more in my Gallery if you want.

Here is the Intake Port mismatch Natrix was talking about.
Image

Same area after porting
Image

Bowl areas before
Image

After
Image

Good luck and HTH

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Todd
2000' A4 Avant ATQ
2003 Audi S8
83' ur-quattro. "Jadis" Cage, Coilovers, No Engine Yet.
"Coupes are better than Sedans. Less Door Handles to replace!!!"

PARTING:
90 90q20v
84 & 86 4000quattro


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 5:50 pm 
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Nice work Todd! Looks just like Mance's pics.

One of the point Mance made was the the arch for the injector was very badly shaped. The spray partially hits the edge which causes bad distortion of the spray cone.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 6:03 pm 
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watching this...:thumbsup:

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 10:35 pm 
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Chris,
Could you expand on that a little. I have Mance's writeup for the IM but not for the head. It seems to have disappeared from AudiWorld & Quattroworld.

If I understand you correctly I think I've addressed the issue. The "arch" stock is about the diameter of a Pencil and is horribly matched to the IM. I've opened them up to match. Its a LOT of material to remove and I was a little nervous at first but Mance told me to go ahead and open it up when I sent him a closeup so I did. I hope to finish this in the next couple weeks so I'll be in touch.

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Todd
2000' A4 Avant ATQ
2003 Audi S8
83' ur-quattro. "Jadis" Cage, Coilovers, No Engine Yet.
"Coupes are better than Sedans. Less Door Handles to replace!!!"

PARTING:
90 90q20v
84 & 86 4000quattro


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 11:10 pm 
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Todd, check the links I gave padwalz.

Here is the relevant page: http://12v.org/audi/headworkshop/1.htm
Looks like you got it covered already seeing your pics.

I am really curious to know what the difference will be in driving experience and fuel consumption.

Now if only there was a P&P VEMS module for the V6...
It really sucks there are no B4 quattros in Thailand.

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95 Audi 80 converted to Quattro + AEB.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 11:53 pm 
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Bildon motorsporsts have clearance on few items for vr6 on ebay, check this out: http://stores.ebay.com/Bildon-Motorspor ... Z906370018


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 11:55 pm 
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Tomis, this is about the Audi V6, not VW VR6.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2010 2:28 am 
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Sorry VR6 is my next future project which is my dreams only. Thats vy vhen I see something like V6, in my mind it pops out like VR. :bashtard:


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