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Alex's '92 Porsche 968 - 07K Transplant

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 Post subject: Re: Alex's '92 Porsche 968 - 07K Transplant
PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2015 9:48 pm 
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Joined: Fri Mar 24, 2006 5:13 am
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Location: Seattle, WA (from Indiana)
Back-dating the chain tensioner setup
This allows you to back-date a new engine to the early style chain setup. Why would you want to do this? This allows you to find an early forged crank, and run it in a later block that's much easier to find with lower miles. This is the route I'm now taking as I found an early forged crank on ebay for $150 shipped. I will back-date the newer 35k mile engine and not have to buy a $1200 TT-RS crank to get a forged one.

Early chain parts diagram: http://www.partscats.info/volkswagen/en/?i=cat_vag_models&brand=vw&number=1796&set=1818&ein=2007&f=462&hauptgr=1234567890&hg=1&grf=010955449&bf=10957&hgug=109&ug=09&parent_id=2249070

Late chain parts diagram: http://www.partscats.info/volkswagen/en/?i=cat_vag_models&brand=vw&number=1796&set=1828&ein=2012&f=692&hauptgr=1234567890&hg=1&grf=010980474&bf=10956&hgug=109&ug=09&parent_id=3473991

Parts that are the same:
  • camshaft adjuster unit 07K109083F
  • gear wheel shaft 07K109224
  • seal 07K109235A
  • mounting 07K109237A
  • socket head bolt with inner multipoint head 06E109281A
  • slide rail 07K109469G
  • chain tensioner 07K109510B
  • slide rail 07K109513D
  • chain sprocket 07K109571D
  • multi-point socket head bolt with collar N 91124601
  • socket head bolt with inner multipoint head (kombi) N 91050202
  • socket head bolt with inner multipoint head N 91099101
  • cylinder pin WHT000041
  • threaded pin WHT000195

Parts that are different ([Name] [Old P/N] [New P/N] [Cost for Old]:
  • chain sprocket 07K109077D 07K109077E $102
  • camshaft timing chain 07K109120A 07K109231A $113
  • chain tensioner 07K109217E 07K109510B $64
  • camshaft timing chain 07K109231A 07K109158B $116
  • chain tensioner 07K109467B 07K109467F $46
  • chain sprocket 07K115121E 07K115121F $36
  • slide rail 07K109514D 07K109513D $33

This brings you to about $510 in new OEM parts to back-date the engine. Another alternative is to find an early motor for cheap (good or bad condition, you can find them for $200) and grab the timing stuff off of that. You'll most likely want to refresh the chain and guides, but that'll save you a few dollars on buying new gears. Or if you buy an early motor with a known forged crank but with a lot of miles, you could look for a later motor with low miles and combine two to make one.

_________________
-Alex- @vexartmedia on Instagram
1992 Porsche 968 (07K transplant in progress)
1983 Aud UrQ (MC1, GT2871R, IIc)
2003 Audi S8 (DD)
Past Audis: 87 CGT, 87 4kcsq, 93 S4, 90 CQ, 87 5ktq, 95.5 S6Avant, 86 CGT CE, 95 90qs 1.8T, 83 UrQ, 87 CGT 7A
Past P-cars: 80 931, 87 924S, 87 951


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 Post subject: Re: Alex's '92 Porsche 968 - 07K Transplant
PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2015 9:48 pm 
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Joined: Fri Mar 24, 2006 5:13 am
Posts: 3250
Location: Seattle, WA (from Indiana)
Forged Crank Identification
Here's how to identify a forged crank from a cast crank. This is handy when browsing cranks on ebay, BUT BE CAREFUL. Make sure that the pictures displayed are the actual item and not stock photos. Also, contact the seller if they list multiple items being available, but only provide one picture. Make sure you get the exact crank pictured that you've identified as being forged.

Forged Crank:
Look for the large, wide flash lines on the lobes of the crank. These should be very noticeable as shown in the photo below.

Image

Cast crank:
Cast cranks do not have the large flash lines like a forged crank does. They have very small, thin lines that are sometimes very hard to see.

Image

_________________
-Alex- @vexartmedia on Instagram
1992 Porsche 968 (07K transplant in progress)
1983 Aud UrQ (MC1, GT2871R, IIc)
2003 Audi S8 (DD)
Past Audis: 87 CGT, 87 4kcsq, 93 S4, 90 CQ, 87 5ktq, 95.5 S6Avant, 86 CGT CE, 95 90qs 1.8T, 83 UrQ, 87 CGT 7A
Past P-cars: 80 931, 87 924S, 87 951


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 Post subject: Re: Alex's '92 Porsche 968 - 07K Transplant
PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2015 9:48 pm 
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Joined: Fri Mar 24, 2006 5:13 am
Posts: 3250
Location: Seattle, WA (from Indiana)
Finally picked up a 931 bellhousing.

ImageIMG_20150717_210930296 by Vex Art, on Flickr

Sadly, it looks like the 931 bellhousing, despite being used on an Audi I4 has the I5 bellhousing pattern (along with sharing the lower 2 944 bellhousing botls). This doesn't really help since the 07K uses the VW I4 pattern. They only have 1 bolt in common.

931 pattern bolts up perfectly to the 'vintage' I5.

ImageIMG_20150718_200259661 by Vex Art, on Flickr

01E bellhousing (modified to fit 07K; two bolt holes at the top need trimmed off) on top of the 944 bellhousing. Red are the VW I4/07K bolts, black are the vintage I5 bolts. The lower 944 bellhousing bolts share the vintage I5 bolts. A large portion of the upper 944 bellhousing would need to be removed. Two of the 07K bolts could possibly be added to the 944 bellhousing by drilling holes and/or adding welding on a small amount of material to the bellhousing.

ImageIMG_20150718_231906658 by Vex Art, on Flickr

The 01E bellhousing template mounted on the 07K engine. The red shows the 07K bolts, and yellow shows the 931/I5 bolts. Only one bolt is shared.

ImageIMG_20150718_205425310 by Vex Art, on Flickr

I think it would be possible to add at least two more shared bolts to the 931 bellhousing pretty easily. The 07K red hole could easily be drilled, there is a nice flat spot on the bellhousing for it.

ImageIMG_20150718_231546048 by Vex Art, on Flickr

The other one would require a small tab to be welded to the 931 bellhousing. This would give 3 matching bolts. I'd want to find at least one more.

ImageIMG_20150718_231558430 by Vex Art, on Flickr

One ear on the 931 bellhousing would need to be removed (much like the 01E) to clear the 07K timing chain cover. But not nearly as much material as the 944 bellhousing would need.

I'm going to order an OEM 01E spacer to help do some more planning. I think both the 944 and 931 bellhousing would take the same amount of work to make work with the 07K. The 944 would require a lot more trimming and then welding to 're-enclose' the bellhousing. The 931 would require slight modifications and no welding to 're-enclose'. An adapter plate might be the best route and would probably work better with the 931 bellhousing. I need to get an 07K clutch/flywheel so I can figure out stack heights and see if I can even run a spacer/adapter plate.

Progress will continue to be slow, the 968 is at the bottom of the list of many projects...

_________________
-Alex- @vexartmedia on Instagram
1992 Porsche 968 (07K transplant in progress)
1983 Aud UrQ (MC1, GT2871R, IIc)
2003 Audi S8 (DD)
Past Audis: 87 CGT, 87 4kcsq, 93 S4, 90 CQ, 87 5ktq, 95.5 S6Avant, 86 CGT CE, 95 90qs 1.8T, 83 UrQ, 87 CGT 7A
Past P-cars: 80 931, 87 924S, 87 951


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 Post subject: Re: Alex's '92 Porsche 968 - 07K Transplant
PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2015 9:49 pm 
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Location: Seattle, WA (from Indiana)
Broke out my 3D scanner for the first time in a long time and scanned the rear of my 07K. Then built a crude model of an 012 bellhousing (since that's what I had a drawing for and it's basically an 01E).
You can see here why the 01E has to be modified to fit the timing cover and you can see bolt holes that line up (marked in red). I missed some holes on my wood mockup since some of them you can't practically fit a drill bit through the backside.

Image07K_Interference by Vex Art, on Flickr

Next step is to order an 01E spacer. I'm going to mock it up and see if it could be welded to a modified 944 bellhousing to be used as an adapter.

Image

_________________
-Alex- @vexartmedia on Instagram
1992 Porsche 968 (07K transplant in progress)
1983 Aud UrQ (MC1, GT2871R, IIc)
2003 Audi S8 (DD)
Past Audis: 87 CGT, 87 4kcsq, 93 S4, 90 CQ, 87 5ktq, 95.5 S6Avant, 86 CGT CE, 95 90qs 1.8T, 83 UrQ, 87 CGT 7A
Past P-cars: 80 931, 87 924S, 87 951


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 Post subject: Re: Alex's '92 Porsche 968 - 07K Transplant
PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2015 11:51 am 
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interesting thread, where did you find both shells? craigslist or elsewhere?


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 Post subject: Re: Alex's '92 Porsche 968 - 07K Transplant
PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2015 12:08 pm 
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Pete82 wrote:
interesting thread, where did you find both shells? craigslist or elsewhere?

Rennlist. One was openly for sale. I placed a want ad and got the second one.

_________________
-Alex- @vexartmedia on Instagram
1992 Porsche 968 (07K transplant in progress)
1983 Aud UrQ (MC1, GT2871R, IIc)
2003 Audi S8 (DD)
Past Audis: 87 CGT, 87 4kcsq, 93 S4, 90 CQ, 87 5ktq, 95.5 S6Avant, 86 CGT CE, 95 90qs 1.8T, 83 UrQ, 87 CGT 7A
Past P-cars: 80 931, 87 924S, 87 951


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 Post subject: Re: Alex's '92 Porsche 968 - 07K Transplant
PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2015 6:10 pm 
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Posts: 636
Location: Bellevue, WA
Not sure what the plan is from the description, just FYI don't try and use the spacer for anything load bearing. It works just fine when subject to only clamping loads as a originally intended, but is otherwise a pretty flimsy piece of kit with questionable metallurgy.

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Kirk

Present: 1990 CQ ABZ, 2005 S4 6MT, 2001 Ducati 748

Past: '93 Corrado SLC, '01 TT225 Quattro, '90 CQ (Black, parted), '69, '70, '72 Beetle,'86 GTI, '90 GTI: Built ABA/9a hybrid, '90 Suburban, '00 F150 4x4 XLT:Lightning swapped pushing 16 psi


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 Post subject: Re: Alex's '92 Porsche 968 - 07K Transplant
PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2015 7:34 pm 
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The German wrote:
Not sure what the plan is from the description, just FYI don't try and use the spacer for anything load bearing. It works just fine when subject to only clamping loads as a originally intended, but is otherwise a pretty flimsy piece of kit with questionable metallurgy.


Yeah, I don't know what the plan is either! Good tip on the spacer, I've never held one in my hand so I wasn't sure how substantial it was. I got one on ebay for $40 shipped, should be here later this week. Figured it'll at least make a better template than wood for figuring out some sort of adapter plate.

_________________
-Alex- @vexartmedia on Instagram
1992 Porsche 968 (07K transplant in progress)
1983 Aud UrQ (MC1, GT2871R, IIc)
2003 Audi S8 (DD)
Past Audis: 87 CGT, 87 4kcsq, 93 S4, 90 CQ, 87 5ktq, 95.5 S6Avant, 86 CGT CE, 95 90qs 1.8T, 83 UrQ, 87 CGT 7A
Past P-cars: 80 931, 87 924S, 87 951


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 Post subject: Re: Alex's '92 Porsche 968 - 07K Transplant
PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2015 8:17 pm 
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Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 10:31 pm
Posts: 636
Location: Bellevue, WA
sounds good. I think an adapter plate sounds like the best plan, with a shim behind the FW if needed for stack height. Nothing about the way those bolt patterns line up in confidence inspiring to me.

Alternatively, I have had a custom bell housing cast for an engine conversion in the past. It's certainly not the least expensive option, but it does give you complete design control so you get exactly what you want. Food for thought.

_________________
Kirk

Present: 1990 CQ ABZ, 2005 S4 6MT, 2001 Ducati 748

Past: '93 Corrado SLC, '01 TT225 Quattro, '90 CQ (Black, parted), '69, '70, '72 Beetle,'86 GTI, '90 GTI: Built ABA/9a hybrid, '90 Suburban, '00 F150 4x4 XLT:Lightning swapped pushing 16 psi


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 Post subject: Re: Alex's '92 Porsche 968 - 07K Transplant
PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2015 8:25 pm 
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Joined: Fri Mar 24, 2006 5:13 am
Posts: 3250
Location: Seattle, WA (from Indiana)
The German wrote:
sounds good. I think an adapter plate sounds like the best plan, with a shim behind the FW if needed for stack height. Nothing about the way those bolt patterns line up in confidence inspiring to me.

Alternatively, I have had a custom bell housing cast for an engine conversion in the past. It's certainly not the least expensive option, but it does give you complete design control so you get exactly what you want. Food for thought.


There's a guy working the 1.8T into a 944 route that is working on a complete custom bellhousing. He paid someone to 3D scan the 944 bellhousing to help him design a new one. By the time I get around to really diving in, maybe he'll have something at a reasonable price.

I think I've got a plan looking at it more tonight. I think I can use the 944 bellhousing and through some bosses/bolts that it has perpendicular to the mating surface, I can develop some 'bolt-on' billet adapter pieces that match up to some 07K bolts. Need to get the spacer ring in to really visualize if this is possible though. I know I can add 1 or 2 07K bolt holes to the 944 bellhousing just by drilling them into the current piece (the material is there).

_________________
-Alex- @vexartmedia on Instagram
1992 Porsche 968 (07K transplant in progress)
1983 Aud UrQ (MC1, GT2871R, IIc)
2003 Audi S8 (DD)
Past Audis: 87 CGT, 87 4kcsq, 93 S4, 90 CQ, 87 5ktq, 95.5 S6Avant, 86 CGT CE, 95 90qs 1.8T, 83 UrQ, 87 CGT 7A
Past P-cars: 80 931, 87 924S, 87 951


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 Post subject: Re: Alex's '92 Porsche 968 - 07K Transplant
PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2015 8:33 pm 
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Joined: Fri Mar 24, 2006 5:13 am
Posts: 3250
Location: Seattle, WA (from Indiana)
A couple shots of the bellhousing sides. Seems substantial enough that I could make some billet blocks that bolt in and then line up with an 07K bolt hole or two. Perfect project to fire up the 3D printer to prototype.

ImageIMG_20150720_202005203 by Vex Art, on Flickr

ImageIMG_20150720_202011444 by Vex Art, on Flickr

This is an easy one, the red hole (07K) isn't drilled but the material is there to at least make a threaded blind hole. I have to see which one it lines up with to see if it's a thru-hole on the engine side, or it would be easy to make it a thru-hole and machine the backside flat for a fastener surface.

ImageIMG_20150720_201942242 by Vex Art, on Flickr

More in a few days when the spacer comes and I can visualize where all the holes really are...

_________________
-Alex- @vexartmedia on Instagram
1992 Porsche 968 (07K transplant in progress)
1983 Aud UrQ (MC1, GT2871R, IIc)
2003 Audi S8 (DD)
Past Audis: 87 CGT, 87 4kcsq, 93 S4, 90 CQ, 87 5ktq, 95.5 S6Avant, 86 CGT CE, 95 90qs 1.8T, 83 UrQ, 87 CGT 7A
Past P-cars: 80 931, 87 924S, 87 951


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