Automobiles Forum banner
41 - 60 of 71 Posts
bullmoose said:
As for the people stating here and there that I 5-cylinder Audi engine is a drop-in for the 924/944, forget about it.
I'm pretty sure a 10v i5 is bolt up to a 924, and 931. I haven't messed with torque tubes etc. Nor to see what flywheel works etc.

Not as many engine swaps into 944s as swaps into a 924

let me see if I can find the 10v to 924NA swap picts
 
Well what i was really wondering about is why it had to be a 924 turbo bellhousing since the pre-86, non-S 924's had the non-turbo version of the 931.

So I suppose that the top diagram you posted is really for 86+ 924/all 924s/944. I imagine a normal 924 would look more like the 931 driveline. The question is whether the bolt pattern is the same?
 
I know the LATE 81 and 82 931 has the same transaxle as the 944, but I don't think the bell-housing is the same because the 2.0 and the 2.5 in the 944 or 924S bolt up differently, and as someone said before you use the 931 because it is made for a larger clutch/flywheel and has hydraulic clutch slave, unlike the standard 924 which has a cable operated clutch.

I found this searching the 924 board.... it's from a long time ago.. Post by 925Turbo from Sweden.
To start with, the biggest problem for me was to make the exhaust manifold and inlet manifold. I have only 4 cm long inlet pipes, because the old 200 turbo engine isnt a cross flow engine. But with the 20V 5 cyl you could probably run with stock inlet. And the exhaust manifold is ending in front of the engine, so the turbo is placed in front of the engine in the right corner. And the exhaust pipe from the turbo makes a U turn around the left front frame. I made an exhaust with five pipes ending up in a collector all of the pipes are 60 cm long I think you only have 10 or 11 cm to build it on in width. I had to move the oil filter as well to make room for the exhaust manifold. The left engine mount I had to do by my self, on the right side I moved the original mount out from the engine ~ 4 cm (used a U beam to do it). The cultch housing is bolt on, but the problem is the flywheel, you have to find a thinner one, or you could use the cultch housing from a 924 Turbo then you could use the Audi flywheel. The support bearing for the transaxle in the crankshaft is another big problem.

I had some problems with the cooling of the engine because the engine ends up a little higher than the stock one. So I moved the expansion tank up as high as possible. It is very tight around the distributor so some things have to move.

I am from Sweden and it is quite close to Germany so I will go dime to Germany to buy me an engine, but for the moment I am studding in Australia.

I have only good thing to say about the 5 cylinder engine the only problem I think there is that it is very difficult to find a ECU to program your self how manage 5 cyl with direct fire.
 
I just posted this on another forum but though it may be useful here also, so shameless copy-paste:

To whomever it may concern...

www.944-20v.nl

As can be seen on my website pictures, I have a n.a. 5-cylinder 20v (engine code 7A) in my type1 944.

The biggest problem is the bit between engine and transaxle of course:

Bellhousing used must be 924 or 931 (= 924turbo), it's hole pattern fits the Audi inline-5 (well enough anyway). Difference between 924 and 931 is that the 931 has a hydraulic clutch and 924 cable operated. I used the 931 bellhousing because my 944 used a hydraulic clutch also originally.

I used the original Audi flywheel, pressure plate, and clutch release bearing. This is quite different from the Porsche setup as there the bearing is pulled rather then pushed

for clutch release. Hence I made myself a clutch fork that creates a push motion on the release bearing when activating the clutch cylinder on the bellhousing.

Clutch plate is one off an Audi 2.8 V6. Has the same outside diameter as the stock 7A plate but fits the 944 transaxle.

The 7A flywheel has a pilot bearing in it (so its not in the crank) and it has the correct diameter for the transaxle. However, it does not line up properly with the transaxle. Also, the Audi clutch assembly does not fit inside the 931 bellhousing because there is not enough clearance/depth. Here two issues can be dealt with in one go by using a 10mm spacer plate between the engine and the bellhousing. It is a standard

Audi part off an S4 2.7 V6 bi-turbo (you can see it in the pictures). With the spacer in place the clutch assembly fits in the bellhousing and the transaxle lines up with the pilot bearing in the 7A flywheel.

The 931 bellhousing fits the 944 transaxle.

I made my own engine mounts. While having the engine hanging from an engine hoist, bolt the bellhousing to the transaxle. Then simply weld up brackets that fill the gaps between the standard engine bolt holes for the stock mounts and the position on the cars rubber mounts on the front subframe.

As can be seen in the pictures, my 7A has a custom oilpan, exhaust header, and uses an turbo intake manifold from an AAN engine.

The original Audi oilpan nowhere near clears the 944 front subframe, neither do any other available pans. Because I cannot weld aluminium (stock 7A pan is alu) I took a steel 10V pan, used its rim (the bit with the hole pattern that mounts to the engine) and welded up a pan that does fit. Of course the oil pickup inside the pan also has to be modified.

The stock 7A intake manifold runs over the valve cover and has it's throttle body on the right hand side of the engine. Advantages of the AAN manifold are that it puts the thottle body close to where it was originally in the 944 making things easier with regards to the throttle cable and mounting the airflow sensor and airfilter. This manifold also accepts standard Bosch injectors whereas the 7A manifold only accepts Hitachi injectors (which are crap..). It also allows much easier access to the valve cover for valve adjustment. Oh wait, they're hydraulic.....
Downsides are that the short intake runners should theoratically hurt low rpm performance compared to the long intake runners of the stock 7A manifold (have not noticed this, the cars pulls strong in low rev band). The stock 7A water manifold that is mounted on the cylinderhead (and to which one of the radiator hoses connects) does not clear and has to be reworked, and the stock 7A throttle body does not fit (made an adapter).

The stock 7A exhaust manifold, which can be a cast iron piece or a tube header both do not clear the 944 firewall because these have the downpipe at the very back of the engine. In an Audi this is not a problem because the engine is mounted very much forward. Hence I welded up my own manifold and downpipe. It all connects to a standard (but stainless) endpipe.

I re-used the stock 944 radiator with electric cooling fan. Because the hoses for it connect to one (the left-hand) side of the engine and the radiator has the hose connections on left and right, I used some stainless pipe and flexible water hoses to connect everything. There is a lot of space to work with on the front of the engine because the 7A 5-cylinder is actually shorter then the Porsche 4-pot!

The alternator is mounted in the standard location on the 7A engine. I made custom brackets for the powersteering pump so this is mounted on the right hand side of the engine where it is normally located on a stock 944. Belt size will obviously depend on your bracket design but many different length belts can be bought so this should not be a problem.

I'm using a non-standard startermotor. The standard 5-cylinder starter motor has its solenoid sticking outwards of the engine (to the right). This provided me with very little clearance for my custom exhaust manifold between engine and engine bay. I found that an Audi 4-cylinder starter (off a 4-cylinder, 2.0 liter Audi 80) would also fit my engine (same gear & rotation direction) but the solenoid would point straight up where there is plenty space. Only one of the two threaded bolt holes in the starter line up with the engine though so the starter does have to be reworked a bit.

Wiring was a bit of a problem for me because the loom was entirely disconnected from the engine when I bought it. With help of people on a German forum I found the right location for each connector though. I will add photo's of this on my website soon. Linking the loom to the 944 wasn't difficult. I actually use a bit of the stock 944 wiring for the starter, alternator, and battery, and only linked up the Audi loom for power and ground to the injection computer, ignition, etc.

I probably forgot a lot of other issues, but I think is this the general procedure. Hope it is interesting for those interested
 
Thanks :thumbsup: Very helpful to see that all in one place.

Getting hold of a 931 bellhousing in the UK is unreasonably difficult though :x

I found one complete car but the guy won't take it apart because it's not worth his time for the parts I want :frustrated: I may try and take it apart myself instead.

I have found the 2.7T spacer though so that is a start.

This is so frustrating! You have given me the info I need to build it, but I can't find the parts :curses:
 
I'd be more then happy to call some of my contacts for you and see if I can get another 931 bellhousing for you if you'd be interested in that. I found mine pretty quick.

Shipping it from The Netherlands to the UK should not be too expensive. The part itself can be rather costly though, maybe you can give me an idea of your budget for this particular part, sent me an email at the address stated (at the bottom of) my website.

Regards, Justin
 
Well I just received what is alleged to be a 924 turbo bellhousing and its not even close to fitting :curses:

What I was expecting:

Image


What I have:

Image


Not even close. It looks exactly like the 944 unit, and even has a 944 part number :frustrated:

I'm really quite :x now. Thats ÂŁ80 down the drain that I really can't afford to lose.
 
I think there were early 924's with n/a VW/Audi motors also... so their front bell housings ought to work...

later 924S were mechanically same (drivetrain) as the 944 with a real Porsche 944 engine, but narrow body shell continued (reincarnated?) from earliest 924's

looks like you have a 924S bell housing there... same as 944

I think the key is it needs to come from a 924 that had the Audi motor... probably MY 1982 or older... as they introduced the 944 in '82 (at least in US)

To confuse thing even more there was an "s" package for the Audi/VW motored early 924's... but all the later ones with Porsche motor were called 924S

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porsche_924
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porsche_944
 
Reason I'm so interested is I've been having vivid nightmares about splicing a 944 pan (firewall rearward) into a Corrado shell, and installing an Audi V8

I've been told the 924/944 front suspension and steering will bolt into Corrado Strut towers... Corrado is 75mm - 4" +/- longer Wheelbase so the V8 should sit well back in the Chassis...

I even hired a sketch artist to draw the nightmare...
 

Attachments

I know that 944 struts are angled really far inward compared to the vw's (no need for space for a transverse motor), so you would probably have serious camber issues with the suspension in a corrado.

And as stated above, the reason for using a 924 turbo bellhousing is because it uses a hydraulic slave cylinder whereas a plain 2.0 924 has a cable operated clutch. But as far as I know they will both bolt up.

And for anyone interested, I came across a nice parts 924 turbo near syracuse:
http://syracuse.craigslist.org/cto/917273747.html
 
WAUG0806 said:
Reason I'm so interested is I've been having vivid nightmares about splicing a 944 pan (firewall rearward) into a Corrado shell, and installing an Audi V8

I've been told the 924/944 front suspension and steering will bolt into Corrado Strut towers... Corrado is 75mm - 4" +/- longer Wheelbase so the V8 should sit well back in the Chassis...
The splicing is an awful lot of work. I'm planning on installing a B3/4 front subframe in the rear to hold the trans and wishbones, and connecting it to the motor with the 944 torque tube. I'm hoping with some cunning fabrication I can do it all without significant structural welding on the shell. There will be cutting, and cosmetics, but hopefully not much structural work.

The 944 front suspension isn't even close to bolting up to a Corrado though. The layout is completely different, with the steering rack in front of the axle line rather than behind it in the 'rado. Subframe, etc are completely different.

Although the wheelbase is pretty close the layout of the two cars is very different, with the motor sitting much further back in the 944 than is possible in the 'rado. The torque tube needs extending by about 18" to connect everything up.

I just need to find the subframe and I can start mocking up. I'll make a build thread when I do :)
 
I missed what chassis you plan on swaping the 924/944 torque tube and rwd trans into...

My idea was to use 944 suspension all 'round (and the "front steer" setup) so the motor would be set way back behind the front spindles... firewall mounted rack woud be first item to hit the dumpster... so picture a 944 pan lengthened by 75mm - my thoughts thus far are that if you splice in the whole pan (at least from firewall back) there is less engineering to do for locating the rear diff, torque tube, shifter...

based on comment above from apavlov13 corrado strut towers would need to be modified... maybe cut out with 924/944 towers spliced in...
 
Corrado!

Image


The problem I see with using the 944 floorpan is the firewall is much further forward in the Corrado, so you would have to lengthen it by much more than 75mm and change the proportions quite a bit. Thats why I mentioned having to extend the torque tube by 12-18" :thumbsup:

If you compare where the engine is relative to the suspension struts and firewall is between the pic above and this one you will see what I mean:

Image


Mikki x
 
Our idea was to carve out the Corrado firewall and push the motor back until it mates with the stock length torque tube... make a new firewall, even move the dash & seats rearward if needed... much better weight balance that way... engine should wind up being almost 100% behind the spindles.. 75mm further back in relation than in a 944

go right ahead and figure that all out for us! :wink:

lots of work no matter how you "ahem" slice it...
 
Well as someone that is putting an Audi V8 and a 944 drivetrain in a VW (if you can still consider my car a VW) maybe I can shed some light on the situation.

The 944 and the VW I am using (Rabbit) have nearly the same wheel base at around 95 inches.

I have moved the engine back in my chassis so that there is only about 6 inches of any engine part ahead of the front wheel centerline.
I will get back to all that in a minute.

First here is how the engine sat in my chassis before I did any cutting.
Image
.
I was not pleased with how much engine there was in front of the front wheel centerline so I cut the firewall and moved it way back.
Image

Image

However that was too far back for what I was doing at the time so I moved it forward a little.
Image


I eventually decided that I was going to build a chassis and mount everything where I wanted it and I believe this is the only way to do it without any compromises.
You can see in this pic about where my engine sits in relation to the front wheel.
Image

Now back to that whole wheelbase thing.
Maybe it is because I moved my engine back so far in my chassis but I will need to remove 12 to 18 inches from my torque tube to make it work with the 95 inch wheelbase..

I am not real sure that you would ever have to lengthen the torque tube.

Next I would like to cover the topic of bell housings.

I have not actually bolted my 931 (924 turbo) bell housing to the V8 yet but I have set it up in place and it appears that there will be 4 or 5 bolts that will line up.
But most of them are on the starter side.

I would like to know if the S4 spacer is necessary but I am going to try it without for now if I can get it to bolt up adequately.

I will know more after this weekend.

I have not even begun to figure out what I need to do for a clutch but I am sure that will open a whole new can of worms.
 
vwhammer said:
I eventually decided that I was going to build a chassis and mount everything where I wanted it and I believe this is the only way to do it without any compromises.
I agree totally with this. All this talk of cut in splice is giving me a headache. It sounds like a nightmare, and without a really good body shop style table and some very accurate cutting. Theres no way some car hobbled together from bits of pans of other unibodys would ever come out aligned in any sense. It would also be quite a challenge to verify its strength and rigidity.

By going with a tube chassis, your strong, adjustable, and safe.
 
g60mec said:
vwhammer said:
I eventually decided that I was going to build a chassis and mount everything where I wanted it and I believe this is the only way to do it without any compromises.
I agree totally with this. .................................
By going with a tube chassis, your strong, adjustable, and safe.
I'd need an engineer to help me! :wink:

IF the Audi V8/924turbo bell-housing/UNCUT 944 torque tube/944 trans-axle/944 rear suspension could all some how be swapped in it'd be a big plus IMO... was thinking add just enough of the 944 rear pan and trans tunnel as you could to use "factory" locations for all of the above + shifter...

so the CAD program in my head visualizes as much of the intact 944 drivetrain and rear suspension and FACTORY mounting points for above being carefully aligned and fastened to as much of the original Corrado unit body as possible... and 944 front suspension and steering 75mm further forward to match the Corrado wheelbase

then you could "subtract" stock sheet metal wherever possible as you tied it all together with cage and tube frame... in front use as much 944 suspension and steering as you can... so your finished from front to rear... chassis would-could-should be all lined up to 944 factory specs +75mm of added wheelbase

... but then if you want to be able to change spark plugs with the engine still in the car... :bump:
 
WAUG0806 said:
IF the Audi V8/924turbo bell-housing/UNCUT 944 torque tube/944 trans-axle/944 rear suspension could all some how be swapped in it'd be a big plus IMO... was thinking add just enough of the 944 rear pan and trans tunnel as you could to use "factory" locations for all of the above + shifter...

so the CAD program in my head visualizes as much of the intact 944 drivetrain and rear suspension and FACTORY mounting points for above being carefully aligned and fastened to as much of the original Corrado unit body as possible... and 944 front suspension and steering 75mm further forward to match the Corrado wheelbase

then you could "subtract" stock sheet metal wherever possible as you tied it all together with cage and tube frame... in front use as much 944 suspension and steering as you can... so your finished from front to rear... chassis would-could-should be all lined up to 944 factory specs +75mm of added wheelbase

... but then if you want to be able to change spark plugs with the engine still in the car... :bump:
You don't want the rear suspension from the 944, it's no good. It only works ina 944 because it's quite a hazzle to build anything better in a 944. For instance, my Race 944 has coilovers and no torsionbars - well, a Golf 2/3 Syncro rear suspension is much easier to adapt to the Corrado and it'll give you pretty much that - swing arm with coilovers. The 944 uses the 100mm joints and I'm pretty sure it'll be possible to either hog out the Golf stuff to use 75mm bearings OR find a shaft with a 100mm inner and smaller outer that fits in the stock bearings.

The 944 front then? Well, that's pretty much a Golf setup. The early short a-arms from a 944 is..... a straight swap for the Golf sheet metal ones. So, what you need is the 944 spindles and possibly the rack - which is said to be a Golf based thingy.

Shifter and shifter mech - well, that's all bolted to the torque tube so that feels pretty much ok. By the way - the shift linkage is routed through the same hole as Adui uses for the clutch cylinder...

I don't think you should have to use any 944 sheet metal as all the mounts and stuff are pretty much straight forward. Check out ETKA for clus on how the Syncro stuff bolts to the Corrado. Solve that and go from there.
 
41 - 60 of 71 Posts