[Lord_Verminaard]

Hi everybody!

How about a discussion about some driving tips when you want to have a little fun in the winter time- with respect to the rules of the road and other's personal property, and overall safety of yourself and others in mind, it can be possible to have a lot of fun while maintaining legal speed limits in a Quattro in the snow. How about everyone share some tips?

I know something I need help with is getting a proper drift started. There is a road near town that is 35mph speed limit, but has two sections of two 90 degree turns so it's a perfect place to practice. Other than using the e-brake, I have a hard time getting the rear end to come out unless I start really slow, start making the turn and then apply throttle. Other times mid-corner I can sometimes get it going by using a combination of more throttle and left-foot breaking. Otherwise trying to start the drift while moving a little faster (aka sorta like a Scandinavian flick, starting the drift before the turn) just results in the front end plowing.

I'm piloting a 1990 CQ, it does have a rear swaybar and is currently equipped with snow tires. Perhaps rig the rear diff lock and try again?

Thanks for the pointers!

Brendan

 

[Colin2750]

I'd try the rear diff lock, but in some cases this may just make it push more. However, mine doesn't work so I've learned how to do it without. If you E-brake you're going to want to kick the clutch in when you do, in my experience it sometimes locks the front wheels up aswell, which as it turns out doesn't work so awesome. With a Torsen center diff, like you and I both have, the more throttle you give it, the more power will be transfered to the rear.

I yank the E-brake Still going straight, get it a little sideways, Let off the e-brake and use throttle and counter-steering to keep it in a good drift. You don't always have to use the e-brake though, sometimes rolling on the throttle does just fine in my experiences.

Tl;dr: E-brake the bitch and pin it.

You do have a rear swaybar and a bit more power so things might change a little bit but this is the basics.

 

[death 4kqt]

its all about the flick, my favorite winter driving move.

 

[scubagli]

Throttle...more throttle...

Sent from my cerebral cortex using Tapatalk

 

[Katman]

its all about the flick, my favorite winter driving move.

2nd on that flick! That little bit of transition in the other direction makes all the difference..
Without it, big plowage.. :-(

Pulling the parking brake will have limited funchtionality, as it will tend to slow the whole car because of quattro, rather than just the back wheels. (In *theory*, you should be ble to lock up just the back wheels if the center diff is unlocked, and you are in nutral or the clutch is in). Left foot braking can help a bit too, as it does a big weight transfer to the front wheels.

 

[death 4kqt]

love that flick! snow is nice to practice it because everything is in slow motion.

 

[timmmy]

Its all about weight transfer and contact patch.

in a straight line accelerating weight is on the back tires, dab the brakes in a streight line to move weight to the front tires, wait half a second and turn in the opposite direction of the corner, as the car starts to turn get back on the gas and turn the other way at the same time, this will cause a pendulum effect of weight transfer and the rear end should step out. Its all a question of timing and patience, if you rush it and don't wait for the weight transfer it will understeer.

Audi NAAC winter driving school this weekend and in a month at Team Oneil if you want a safe place to practice. http://www.naaclub.org/

 

[Quattro Krant]

I find that if I down shift right before the turn, floor it, and then turn, I get GLORIOUS drifts in the 4kq. Just wish I had a bit more power but it is damn near perfect for the snow. Honestly though, it is easier for me to do it then try and explain how to do it. When we get snow, I have my favorite local loop that features a true 90 degree turn around an open field. It is PERFECT as well before you enter the turn, you can see if any other traffic is coming from the other direction. Makes it nice and safe. Also, seeing the snowmobilers exiting the woods at the outside of the 90 degree turn, glorious drift, and then hauling ass on the straight is so much fun.

 

[the_natrix]

If your CQ still has the 01a then pulling the ebrake should not totally hamper the speed of the car, so long as you are on ice/snow and you have a good tight working e-brake setup. just be sure to de-clutch during handbraking and then torsen cannot interfere.

I find I very much prefer using my e-brake to get my 90 to drift rather than flick, I will explain.

but like others said its all about the flick. the problem, i atleast have, is that confidence in getting the car to flick without it understeering off the side of the road. LOL this is where having good tires, good suspension and alot of practice with said car comes into play.
What I end up doing is a mix of the flick and e-brake. this is why I am such a dick about having a very tight responsive and authoritive e-brake setup.

I find that locking the rear diff helps too, if you disconnect your speed input wire to the diff lock box, then you can lock and keep it locked at your pleasure. really helps too giving you more traction during acceleration and take off.

dont try to get too far outside your level of confidence, no need to throw the car in a ditch during some fun. just keep it fun and safe when you are on the streets, this is not a rally!

 

[autoholic]

I can only comment on locker equipped 4kq's, Just my opinion here: I agree that it is all about weight transfer. These cars need to be tossed around and steered with the rear on really slick surfaces, those that say getting sideways is not the fastest way around are probably driving different cars lol.

On super slick surfaces, both of my 4k's would understeer like mad if you just try to steer them around a course. The NA car really liked lift throttle and some clutch kick to get it to rotate. The turbo car is similar, but I have been doing much more LF braking, which i have found will really help plant the front tires entering a turn, then off of brake exiting turn and power all there. As John Buffum said "in like a lamb, out like a lion" so true, if you go into slick stuff too hot you'll just go wide, especially with 4WD as the centrifugal force of all wheels spinning will pull you wide even more.

Flicking em is a great thing, but risky as a lot can go wrong with a fully committed flick, especially on a public road! Screwing up a flick can really set you back, but it is a great thing if you get it right (which i can't seem to do consistently). Its a tricky thing to time just right, especially when obstacles are present.
When the front wheels have some bite these cars are very forgiving, but when it is raining on glare ice, they can be challenging to turn in.
I never use my ebrake since my car is locker center, and its too distracting for me anyway.

As true with all cars; look way ahead, never look where you don't want to go, avoid excessive steering input and be relaxed on the wheel, not pushing or pulling on it. Also try to avoid turning the wheel more then 90* Buffum felt his car turned too sharp, and had his techs limit steering angle.

I guess these cars compare to 911's in a way: people dis the audi's for so much weight in front of F wheels, while 911's are dissed for too much weight in rear.
It may be true that they need to be driven (hard) differently, but no one can argue with their racing success.

I'd recommend going to the local ice races or rallycross to feel out your car, careful on the public roads - I just flipped my 4k on its side into a 8' ditch messing around near my house. Pissed off my neighbors, knocked down a mail box, more to this idiotic story which i can not get into here. The car took it fairly well, but she aint the pretty car she once was. New windshield and some lenses and she's back in action.

There is a rallyX/test&tune day at Oneil rally school on 2/12, an NER rallyX in NH 2/4 and I heard a winter cross coming up in VT somewhere, I think also on 2/12. I doubt i will go to any of them as i have been busy with other stuff these days, but it is such a blast to safely go 10/10ths, much more fun than public roads.

What are people's opinions on alignment settings? I tried all kinds of stuff and got confused, now car has stock settings.

I drove the 4k to work today, pouring rain out and probably glare ice on way home YAY!

 

[bangoman]

Don't try it in a bread van

 

[boschman36]

Its all about weight transfer and contact patch.

This. Paramountly important to being able to drive safe (and fast ) on both snow and gravel.

 

[bigquattro]

1. you have an NA 20v, you're not going to have much fun above 25mph
2. find remote locations, NOT city / urban areas, traffic will not allow you to go balls out
3. disregard laws / speed limits, i dont know where this "with respect to local laws" shenanigans is coming from?
4. lock diff(s)
5. scandinavian flick
6. throttle throttle throttle throttle while adjusting steering accordingly
7. when you understeer, lay into the gas to dig yourself out

i guess to answer the question immediately: no, you can't have fun while obeying the rules of the road. but i hope you come to the dark side of us rule breaking folk.

triple edit: you have to have balls. you can't second guess at all. you can't pussy foot around. if you can't get it together when you're freaking out because of understeer to mash the gas, you might as well not try at all.

best of luck lemme know how it goes! <3

 

[timmmy]

1. you have an NA 20v, you're not going to have much fun above 25mph
2. find remote locations, NOT city / urban areas, traffic will not allow you to go balls out
3. disregard laws / speed limits, i dont know where this "with respect to local laws" shenanigans is coming from?
4. lock diff(s)
5. scandinavian flick
6. throttle throttle throttle throttle while adjusting steering accordingly
7. when you understeer, lay into the gas to dig yourself out

i guess to answer the question immediately: no, you can't have fun while obeying the rules of the road. but i hope you come to the dark side of us rule breaking folk.

triple edit: you have to have balls. you can't second guess at all. you can't pussy foot around. if you can't get it together when you're freaking out because of understeer to mash the gas, you might as well not try at all.

best of luck lemme know how it goes! <3

Please don't take this the wrong way as I dont know you at all Bigquattro, but almost everything you said there except #2 & #4 is completely wrong.

I felt I should reply as if people follow your advice we will see more 'parting wrecked quattro' threads.

As I mentioned earlier, driving fast on loose surfaces is all about weight transfer and contact patch, and very little about balls and gas, gas, gas.

1. It is absolutely possible to drift an NA 20V, I can drift my 6000lb NA Chevy Astro in the snow at way above 25mph.
2. Hey you got one right , Public roads are not the best place to practice, find an ice racing club or winter driving school, or at a minimum an abandoned parking lot or industrial estate.
3. Cops dont like shananigans, sure we all play a little but the risk vs reward is high so its your personal call where and when. For me the more I race/instruct, the more like an old woman I drive on the street.
4. Hey you got another one right but dont lock the center if you intend to use the handbrake at all.
5. The whole theory behind the flick is weight transfer and pendullum affect, and has almost nothing to do with the throttle asides from how quickly you get off the gas.
6. Throttle, throttle, throttle is only important after the slide is initiated.
7. "when you understeer, lay into the gas to dig yourself out" SOOOOO WRONG. If you experience understeer and take this advice you WILL end up in a ditch/trees/oncoming traffic/ hospital/jail. The reason you get understeer is that you are asking too much from the front tires to begin with, so stomping the gas just asks more from them so the understeer gets worse. Read up about 'the traction circle', and 'the string approach'. What you should do is reduce steering input and or throttle input, when you do this the car will respond by starting to turn.

Not the best video but this explains the basics

Car control clinic in my Miata, note that 80% of the drifts are initated with brakes not throttle, however I also use 'clutch drops' sometimes.

 

[bigquattro]

no i was definitely mildly intoxicated and in northern michigan watching a rally america event. It's also my first year driving an AWD vehicle so I didn't expect anybody to be like "yeah, do what he said" so I dont take any of your response personally. I just had beers waiting for me to drink them so it was brief and mildly outlandish.

In that case, I agree with almost everything you said. Hat's off. Nothing you said appears rant-ish either, except for the length of the post. very informative! I wish I had a gopro going for what conditions we were driving in though, then maybe a tiny bit of my post would make sense. These are remote roads, untraveled, varying elevation, with around 8 inches of snow on them, single track, and then snowmobile trails. Perhaps next year I'll catch some footage. I didn't really have time to pace myself and logically think out the situation as you described, I just based all my driving inputs on passenger hours with various acquaintances. As naive as that sounds, it's done me well so far.

 

[Lord_Verminaard]

Lots of good info everyone, thanks very much. I wish I could spend some time with some of you veteran drivers in the passenger seat learning how everything feels so I can add that sensation to your descriptions.

I should add that I got very good at flicking my Scirocco, usually e-brake was not required and it was pretty easy to do even on wet pavement- this was my SII with pretty thin tires, 175's. (and I will shamefully admit that I got practice doing it from the Richard Burns Rally PC game!!) It just seems that with the CQ its like slow motion. Also I might add, I don't do these sorts of things all the time or when conditions don't call for it. I will admit that I am a scaredy-cat on the streets, too much stuff to run into and cops to worry about. Most of the time with the Scirocco, I would do these things on access roads or roads with good visibility where I can see if there is other traffic, and most of the fun I had with that car was at speeds less than 40 mph.

I'll also say that one of the main reasons why I asked this question in the first place is that the E-brake on the CQ is sticking so I can't use the e-brake to initiate slides anymore.

I am really going to try hard to get a auto-x in at least once this season, more than likely with the Corrado. I feel this deep urge to get into some real performance driving like NOW....

Thanks guys-
Brendan

 

[JunkcollectorJ]

it's all about seat time. You can read about how to drive all day long, but doing it is what helps. Find a wide open lot and pound on it, you'll get the hang of it. My 4k with front springs in the rear would rotate real nice. Sure it took tagging a few snowbanks, but eventually I could drift it quite well.

The flick works great, just is easy to over do it.

At hillclimbs I can get the rear of my rabbit to rotate well with a heavy left foot brake. It has 300# springs in the rear though, which help. just have to set your car up the way you want it and give it a beating to get the hang of it.

I miss my 4k

 

[Andy10v]

The easiest cheap way I would say is to go find an empty car park at night full of snow and play. Once you are confident in an empty space start going round bush/trolley etc.

What Haydn said is great advice, I learned that over time through trial and error. That is another thing, once you can drive ok, 20 minutes with a tutor on track is worth hours of road driving. As it the ability to drive the car as hard as you can/wish on the track in relative safety that you cannot do on the road.

 

[a_CQ]

:stupid:

Brendan, Audi Club in general has great instructors that would help you get really comfortable behnid the wheel at speeds you usually don't reach in regular traffic. Once you're back on the road, everything will feel like slow motion and you will feel so much more in control. Craig Liechty puts together a great event at MidOhio, begining of July. You get to learn from professionals driving specially setup cars where they can induce over- or under-steer on the go. You then take your car onto the track and with an insturctor in the passenger seat, both days, you learn more high-speed control. Far far better than any single Auto cross you would attend, but even Auto-x will help you realize that car's, and your own, limits are much farther out than you'd think.

 

[gtn116]

Hey Brendan, I'd like to come out and mess around. I usually end up in my driveway/yard messing around in either the car or the quad. I drift my V8 pretty often too...