[Mickey]

I've found this photo but can't identify the transmission yet... Anyone?

MG

 

[Mickey]

Thanks for the info so far.

I have been watching W12 engines come up for sale on ebay.de for the last 6 months and the prices vary from as little as 2K Euro to 6K Euro with varying amount of parts missing or added etc.

Obviously fitting a W12 motor to something else means I need everything from the car and I don't know at present what's involved in getting an Auto engine to run without the transmission... I guess I could run it with the loom, ECU and minimal parts from the trans etc.

This is some info I've managed to put together so far on the W12 engine.

Audi A8 W12 6.0 (AZC)
From 03/01-09/02
444 Bhp @ 6,000rpm
428 Ft lbs @ 4,700rpm
Notes: Only 750 Produced in the D2 A8.

Audi A8 W12 6.0 (BHT)
From 02/04-
450 Bhp @ 6.000rpm
428 Ft lbs @ 4,000-4,700rpm

VW Phaeton W12 6.0 (BAN)
From 05/02-
444 Bhp @ 6,000rpm
413 Ft lbs @ 3.250rpm

VW Touareg W12 6.0 (BJN)
From 08/04-
444 Bhp @ 6,000rpm
443 Ft lbs @ 3,300rpm

If the early engines had problems then I'll avoid them, thanks for the warning. The later I go, the more complications but I can live without having to replace the crankshaft on a W12!! Do you know which engine code the problems were with?

I'll have a look into B7 RS4 transmissions and try to get some more photos of the flywheel end of the W12 as that's going to give me the most info.

MG

 

[Mickey]

Thanks for the detailed replies.

Looking at the photo, I can see fitting a manual transmission (along with clutch and flywheel) being one of the biggest headaches with the W12.

Re engine management, I'd stick with the OE setup as I have an idea of what's needed and have managed to get many other VAG engines up and running in other vehicles. I don't have the knowhow to map an aftermarket system.

A V10 sounds like a great idea but there isn't enough room in the car...

I had an ABZ kicking around which I almost fitted to it (and had running on the floor) but I'm wanting more hp and the W12 does it for me...

MG

 

[Mickey]

Just following on from this.

I'm still looking at the W12 as a possible engine for the project but the V10 is now also a possibility IF it will fit.

Does anyone have some measurements of the engine?

There's not that much room in the back of a Bug!

MG

 

[Mickey]

Thanks for all the replies.

I've done TDI installs in other vehicles. The Oval will be staying with petrol power.

I'm a Vag fan and know the technology that they use and how to maintain it.

The reason for my interest in the W12 is that it fits the space I have in the middle of the bug.

Short, wide, over 400hp out of the box and normally aspirated.

Mpg is not in my mind for this project. Sound, individuality and power are.

I'll be breaking an S8 2001 soon so will have a very good idea as to just much work goes into using the stock wiring from a similar aged D2. I may even run the dash in the project, I haven't decided yet.

Both projects will run on stock ECUs so I can plug in etc. I have no problem with running all the sensors etc, why remove a system that Audi spent hundreds of thousands developing?

MG

 

[Mickey]

I haven't tried.

I see no point in spending out on a new fuel pump that I'm not going to able to use in the project.

I'll be running an aftermarket pump in the van so may use that just to move the car around if need be.

MG

 

[Mickey]

Well I've taken the plunge and purchased a 2004 VW Phaeton W12 with a blown transmission.

It's only done 59k miles but the ZF5hp24 (yes it's the same as the S8 one I rebuilt) has had enough.

Unlike the S8, I can't remove the transmission without pulling the motor and once it's out, I don't really feel like putting it back in. It still drives, just in 5th gear but the engine has enough power to set off like that!

I'll start a new project thread when I take the car to pieces.

A few questions...

Has anyone tried bolting up a B7 RS4 gearbox to a W12?

Will an 034 motorsport flex plate insert for the ABZ fit the W12?

Thanks

 

[Mickey]

How about the timing rings on the flex plate? I've not seen one from a W12 yet. Do they run a pin or a 60-2 etc?
I've been looking at many Audi gearboxes and have yet to find anything else that uses the same bolt pattern as the W12... I remember hearing that one of the W12 Bentley's was available as a manual but looking it up, everything is auto.
MG

 

[Mickey]

I've yet to start pulling the Phaeton apart but it's looking increasingly like it's got Can-Bus and therefore a big headache to get running outside of the vehicle. Not impossible but not fun either!

Also... following up on the bolt up pattern of the W12. I think that that may depend on the year of the W12 engine.

Looking at the W12 from a D2 A8, a Phaeton W12 illustration from the self study guide and the Audi V10...

The Audi V10 and Phaeton W12 look to be similar but the D2 A8 W12 looks very different.

I'll continue to research.

MG

 

[Mickey]

This has already crossed my mind. I need to look into what differences there are between the A8 W12 and the Phaeton W12 engines.

I know that the intake manifold is different but the cams, sensors, comp ratio etc could also be different and give me huge headaches with running problems.

Unfortunately this is one engine where an aftermarket ECU won't work due to the complicated nature of variable cams on both intake and exhaust etc.

MG

 

[Mickey]

While doing to tidying up in the garage this morning, I found both my Audi fixed gearbox spacer and the W12 spacer that I bought a while ago for research purposes and they share 3 locating holes.

I've laid them on top of each other to see just how far out the rest are.

I realise that the photo needs rotating and will do that later on.

MG

 

[Mickey]

Oh, and here's a few of the W12 spacer sitting against a Porsche gearbox.

Interesting that they share more in common.

MG

 

[Mickey]

This gearbox is sold to a friend in Sweden. The reason I wanted to check it is that I have the choice of either an 01E 2WD box from a 2.5TDI or a Boxster S gearbox which is fundamentally the same as the 996 but has the diff on the other side to change the direction of drive.

I also spoke to MRC Tuning today about the possibility of having the ECUs chipped to code out can-bus etc. We'll see!

MG

 

[Mickey]

I'm currently driving the Phaeton W12 as my daily driver... it's not cheap on fuel! Especially as it's stuck in top gear as the transmission needs a rebuild. It that didn't mean dismantling the front end of the car, I would have done it by now.

So far, nobody has been able to offer to re-program the engine ECUs to run without the rest of the system.

That leads me to believe that either no one has ever done this or that at the moment, it's not possible. Maybe that will change in the future.

I've started looking for Audi A8 D2 ECUs (lots of those on ebay.de) and the engine harness. I think that this is probably my way forwards.

Having checked on some basics, the camshafts, heads etc are identical between the BAN (Phaeton W12) and the AZC (A8 W12). The throttle bodies have a different part number but then the inlet manifold is different also...

I've more research to do and to get another vehicle on the road so that this one can get taken apart.

MG

 

[Mickey]

Just keeping the info coming on these engines.

I've recently been offered the loom and ECUs from an A8 D2 W12 in UK but the price was more than I have to pay someone who can tune the original Phaeton ECUs to run... and I get more bhp out of it too!

Someone has asked for the part number of the W12 engine/gearbox spacer plate so I figured I'd take a couple of photos and put them on here for everyone to see.

I'm getting closer to pulling the engine out of the Phaeton and have started parting it out.

After reading up about removing the engine, I found out that the sump isn't strong enough to support the engine when it's sitting on the floor and will break! The engine weighs 250kg!!

As a result, I've bought the VW Tool which locates into the bottom of the engine block which will allow the engine to sit safely and square to the floor. This will also help when I come to place the engine and gearbox in the right position on the chassis jig.

The donor vehicle...

MG

 

[Mickey]

I've finally got to stripping the Phaeton down.

With the radiator out of the way, you can really start to see the engine.

I hope to have the engine/gearbox out in the next few days but as I'm not sure which bits I'm using yet, I'm taking my time to remove everything carefully rather than blasting through stuff.

I have found someone who makes an adaptor plate to go from the W12 to an Audi manual gearbox - he makes the kit for the C5 RS6 and that shares the same bolt pattern as the W12... but... the kit is over $2,000 which I don't have.

So, I'm going to look into using a flex plate from an ABZ with 034 Motorsport Flywheel insert.

This would mean that the starter motor wouldn't reach so I may modify the gearbox casing and have a section of casing welded in from another gearbox and mount the starter motor on the gearbox rather than the engine.

After that, I'll have to bridge the gaps from the engine to the transmission around the outside of the bell-housing.

MG

 

[Mickey]

Could you get an insert made to fit the Phaeton flex plate? Or is that too big to go in the gearbox?

Too big to fit inside.

I'm pretty much out on a limb here as I can't find anyone who has tuned a W12 engine.

I've no idea as to what flywheel weight is a good idea, how much more power/torque I can get from this with proper tuned length headers, what size exhaust to go for, etc etc.

MG

 

[Mickey]

Almost positive you can use the SteveKen adapter kit for the trans. The wiring shouldn't be tough, the technology isn't that advanced for an 04ish car. Just use the W12 cluster and wire it up correctly.

It's Steve that I've been in touch with. I sent him detailed photos etc to help check that the W12 has the same bolt pattern. I just can't afford to buy the kit

MG

 

[Mickey]

I haven't tried tbh. I'm not that worried about the wiring at present. I know someone who can re-write the ECUs when I need to.

I did however find this photo...

I want these headers!!

I have been in touch with the manufacturer but they want almost £4,000 to make them!

I'll have to keep looking.

MG